Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

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Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:44 pm

in the news
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/front-range/boulder/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-case-20-years-after-her-death-no-arrests-new-dna-testing-planned wrote:
JonBenet Ramsey murder case: 20 years after her death no arrests, new DNA testing planned

BOULDER, Colo. -- Twenty years after JonBenet Ramsey was found dead in her parent's home on the day after Christmas, no one has been arrested but Boulder Police say the investigation continues.

Boulder's police chief said investigators have:

Processed more than 1,500 pieces of evidence
Analyzed of over 200 DNA samples
Received and reviewed or investigated more than 20,000 tips, letters or emails.
Traveled to over 18 states
Interviewed, or spoken with more than 1,000 individuals

The Colorado Bureau of Investigation will test certain pieces of evidence in the unsolved murder next year, Boulder District Attorney Stan Garnett told Denver7 earlier this month.

"DNA is a very rapidly developing area of forensic investigation, and of course, it's important for us that any of the evidence in the Ramsey case, and in any case, is tested according to the most current and updated methods," Garnett said.

"I don’t anticipate there’s going to be any dramatic developments from this round of testing, but if the rest of the case comes together at some, I want to be assured that we have state of the art DNA testing on everything in the case," Garnett told Denver7's Marc Stewart.

Garnett's office and Boulder Police investigators are working to decide which pieces should undergo the new, more sensitive testing that is now available. It's called YFiler Plus and it focuses on the Y chromosome.

The evidence likely being considered for the new testing is the duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth, the ligatures that were on her wrists, part of the garrote that strangled her and a flashlight, according to ABC News.

Garnett said while the additional DNA testing "might give us new information that could be helpful to the investigation, I don't expect that DNA test results alone will definitively solve or prove the case."

"To ever have a prosecutable case, we have to have several different pieces of evidence come together," Garnett said.

The last time any of the evidence was tested for DNA was the fall of 2008 when the wrist ligatures were sent to the CBI. The results were inconclusive.


personally i will wait for the results of this new round of dna testing, including testing specifically for male dna.

i also think the pink barbie nightgown and white blanket jonbenet was found in should also be tested as well as articles of clothing.

i don't see much of a point in me arguing for idi at this time, i'll let the new dna testing results planned for 2017 speak.

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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by MurderMysteryReader on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:26 pm

If the same DNA from the leggings,underwear, and under JonBenet's fingernails is found on other items I think the case for IDI will be made since the innocent transfer via factory worker or store employee will be more farfetched; the same person handling all these items will be even more farfetched. It should have been enough that the DNA that was found first eliminated the Ramsey's or any family involved. Of course, that is my opinion but it was and will be enough for me.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:31 pm

MurderMysteryReader wrote:If the same DNA from the leggings,underwear, and under JonBenet's fingernails is found on other items I think the case for IDI will be made since the innocent transfer via factory worker or store employee will be more farfetched; the same person handling all these items will be even more farfetched. It should have been enough that the DNA that was found first eliminated the Ramsey's or any family involved. Of course, that is my opinion but it was and will be enough for me.

i agree. there are objections that there are not enough markers in the original dna sample, that the dna is a composite of multiple individuals, and of course secondary transfer.

i agree that finding the same dna in several items at the crime scene, hopefully up to the new 20-marker standard, will settle the issue definitely.

hopefully these new round of dna tests will be done in a timely manner, and their results made public.

it may very well show rdi skepticism is justified, and that the dna has an innocent explanation
just as it can confirm idi if same dna is found on multiple items such as tape ligature paint brush.



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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by MurderMysteryReader on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:18 pm

I find it more interesting that due to different scenarios that the Ramsey's didn't leave behind their DNA on her clothing or leggings if they had done this. Living in the home the Ramsey's would have left a whole lot of DNA behind over the years, so it would be difficult to sort it all out.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:42 pm

MurderMysteryReader wrote:I find it more interesting that due to different scenarios that the Ramsey's didn't leave behind their DNA  on her clothing or leggings if they had done this. Living in the home the Ramsey's would have left a whole lot of DNA behind over the years, so it would be difficult to sort it all out.

i agree, a guy over at websleuth called ukguy claimed they found john and patsy dna on those items but he didn't provide a source and i've not heard it mentioned. it would seem if rdi their dna should be all over jbr but no news source or book source, not even james kolar says this.


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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by MurderMysteryReader on Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:59 pm

I hope someone requested it be verified. Some posters never learn that you have to back up online statements on any case they are following. I will have to think if I will read Kolar's book. If I do I will do so to be more well rounded in discussion on the case.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by Inspector Rex on Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:17 pm

I wish we had confirmation that the DNA of Diego Alcalde has been tested against the DNA found in the JonBenet case.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by MurderMysteryReader on Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:24 pm

That would be terrific Inspector Rex. All possible suspects of the killing of JonBenet Ramsey should have their DNA compared to the DNA in the JonBenet case imo. It is a shame that it wasn't done in the beginning stages of the investigation of the case. How else are we going to find him or her responsible.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by Inspector Rex on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:42 pm

It took 7 years after his DNA was taken (for kidnapping another girl) for the link to be established with the Susannah Chase murder. This petite blond was found raped and beaten on Dec 21 in the following year to JonBenet (1997) in Boulder. Such a coincidence.

If his DNA has been tested, and if it does match that found at the crime scene of JonBenet, would he ever be brought to justice? Would it even be considered, as he is already serving a life sentence? The chances of his conviction being overturned may be too much of a risk for LE to try to convict him of another murder, while he is still serving his sentence for the previous murder. Perhaps if he is ever released, then they might think about it. In the meantime, I'd like to know if it's ever been tested and if so, what was found.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:11 pm

Inspector Rex wrote:I wish we had confirmation that the DNA of Diego Alcalde has been tested against the DNA found in the JonBenet case.

I can confirm this

the DNA distal stain-09  in Jonbenet was entered into CODIS
Diego Alcalde  DNA was also entered into CODIS.

http://www.coloradodaily.com/ci_12958241

Alleged victim: 'It wouldn't surprise me' if Alcalde had killed
Vanessa Miller
Posted:   03/19/2009 08:58:00 AM MDT

BOULDER, Colo. -

One of several women who claims Boulder homicide suspect Diego Olmos Alcalde assaulted her testified Thursday that "it wouldn't surprise me" if he had killed someone.

Alcalde, 39, is accused of fatally beating University of Colorado student Susannah Chase, 23, near her Boulder home on Dec. 21, 1997. He was arrested last year because his DNA, which was entered into a federal database after an unrelated kidnapping conviction, matched evidence from the Boulder crime scene.

In motions hearings in Boulder County District Court this week, prosecutors are asking to discuss five other reported assaults involving Alcalde during his first-degree murder trial in June.

One of those alleged victims -- who said Alcalde violently raped her 11 days after Chase died -- said she believes Alcalde "had done it before," according to a recorded police interview that was played Thursday in court.

"He did it with such ease and confidence," said the woman, whom the Camera isn't naming because of its policy not to identify sex-assault victims. "He was that cool, calm and confident about the situation."

The woman, a convicted prostitute, was deported to the United Kingdom years ago but agreed to answer questions about her alleged attack for Boulder police after Alcalde's arrest in the Chase homicide.

She told police she was walking along Colfax Avenue in Denver at 2:45 a.m. Jan. 1, 1998, when Alcalde attacked her and forced her into his car.
She said he held a knife to her throat and "told me not to scream or he would slit my throat."

Then, she said, he raped her for what "seemed like a lifetime." When the woman refused Alcalde's sexual demands, she said, he kicked her out of a moving car. And, she said, as he drove off he shouted: "If you make it a problem, I'm gonna say it was consented."

The woman said she'll never forget his "cold" eyes during the attack.

"He made it known that he has no fear and has no remorse," she said.

When an officer showed the woman a picture of Alcalde after his arrest in the Chase killing, she said, "He's as sick looking as he was back then," and, "They need to castrate him."

"I just hope this time that they get it right over there, and they lock him up," she said. "They need to. He's a danger to women."

Public defender Mary Claire Mulligan questioned the validity of the woman's allegations, citing her long criminal history of false reporting to police, prostitution and drug possession. Mulligan said a detective reported in 1998 that when he was talking with the woman about the alleged assault she seemed "more concerned about her money, bus tokens and car."

Alcalde told police he knew the woman as a prostitute and had had sex with her before, according to court documents, and Mulligan said he proved he knew personal things about the victim by correctly telling police about her 13-year-old son and where she lived.

After information surfaced that the woman was HIV positive, she failed to follow up with officers, Mulligan said. The Denver District Attorney's Office never filed charges because a conviction was unlikely, she said. It's unclear whether Alcalde has been tested for HIV.

Prosecutors have argued that jurors should hear testimony from women who say they were Alcalde's victims because, according to Colorado law, there's a greater need to consider "other relevant acts of the accused" in sex-offense cases.

But in court Thursday, Mulligan questioned a Boulder detective about how sure he is that Chase was sexually assaulted by the person who beat her to death.

Boulder detective Chuck Heidel, who has been on the Chase case from its start, confirmed that one doctor concluded there was "no sexual assault in Chase's case." That doctor found no evidence of trauma, redness, swelling or abrasions in or around Chase's genitalia, Mulligan said.

But upon further investigation, Heidel said, detectives determined Chase was raped, and they found semen inside her after her death. The semen matched Alcalde's DNA, according to police.

Prosecutor Amy Okubo said Thursday that when a Chilean reporter asked Alcalde if he was with Chase the night she died, he responded, "I don't remember."

He has maintained his innocence to police, saying he was not in Boulder at the time of the homicide.

Contact Camera Staff Writer Vanessa Miller at millerv@dailycamera.com or 303-473-1329.

 y


Boulder detective Chuck Heidel, who has been on the Chase case from its start, confirmed that one doctor concluded there was "no sexual assault in Chase's case." That doctor found no evidence of trauma, redness, swelling or abrasions in or around Chase's genitalia, Mulligan said.

But upon further investigation, Heidel said, detectives determined Chase was raped, and they found semen inside her after her death. The semen matched Alcalde's DNA, according to police.

Prosecutor Amy Okubo said Thursday that when a Chilean reporter asked Alcalde if he was with Chase the night she died, he responded, "I don't remember."?


the rape murder happened in Boulder CO, they took his semen and DNA and matched it to Suzzah Chase and entered it into federal database CODIS

there (presumably) was no match given that CODIS is a computerized system designed for just this

apparently, a prostitute from UK was in Boulder Co and was raped by this guy, and then flew back to UK

small world indeed Suspect

interestingly the MD pathologist said there was no injury to Suzzah chase vagina so she was not raped

but as they found semen in her vagina she was raped.

so its possible to rape a woman and murder and not injury her vagina that is apparent to a pathologist on autopsy

jonbenet had injuries to her vagina, though it is inconclusive as to the exact nature of sexual contact between perp and her.


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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:18 pm

Inspector Rex wrote:It took 7 years after his DNA was taken (for kidnapping another girl) for the link to be established with the Susannah Chase murder.  This petite blond was found raped and beaten on Dec 21 in the following year to JonBenet (1997) in Boulder.  Such a coincidence.

If his DNA has been tested, and if it does match that found at the crime scene of JonBenet, would he ever be brought to justice?  Would it even be considered, as he is already serving a life sentence?  The chances of his conviction being overturned may be too much of a risk for LE to try to convict him of another murder, while he is still serving his sentence for the previous murder.  Perhaps if he is ever released, then they might think about it.  In the meantime, I'd like to know if it's ever been tested and if so, what was found.

Stan Garnett ordered new DNA testing done, CBI has a new DNA laboratory built and will be active 2017, and he claims he will go to court to identify jonbenet's killer by name, as reported in several recent news stories.


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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:20 pm

MurderMysteryReader wrote:That would be terrific Inspector Rex. All possible suspects of the killing of JonBenet Ramsey should have their DNA compared to the DNA in the JonBenet case imo. It is a shame that it wasn't done in the beginning stages of the investigation of the case. How else are we going to find him or her responsible.

the news reports state DNA of more than 200 male suspects have been taken and compared to Jonbenet.

news reports also claim the DNA may be a composite from multiple individuals, or it may come from secondary transfer.

DNA experts recommend additional testing including one specific for male DNA on Y chromosome, which has not been done before.

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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by Inspector Rex on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:40 pm

Thanks Pill. You would think that entering it in the database would be enough, but I'd like confirmation that it has actually been confirmed by experts in the field that he wasn't a match.

What's the chances do you think of two "Christmas-time murderers" in the one town in consecutive years? True the method was different and the victim's ages different, but their looks are similar. It's just possible he saw JonBenet in public and either found out who she was or followed her. There was some suggestion that he may have worked at Pasta Jays as a kitchen hand. I'd also like to know what his "cruel childhood" (according to his mother) was about. Did it involve bondage? Some times, when children have been abused they "punish" their abuser by repeating the actions on victims of their own.
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Re: Jonbenet Ramsey rdi vs idi, with new dna testing it's out of our hands

Post by redpill on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:50 pm

there are sites that explain forensics such as CODIS

How Does CODIS Work?

CODIS uses two indexes to organize information in their database:

The "Convicted Offender Index" contains DNA profiles of individuals convicted of certain crimes. In Massachusetts, the DNA profile of every adult convicted of a felony is added to the database. Each state sets its own laws governing who is entered into the database.
The "Forensic Index" contains DNA profiles from crime scene evidence.

CODIS searches across both of these indexes for a match. A match made between the Forensic Index and the Convicted Offender Index can provide law enforcement with the identity of a suspect(s).

http://www.surviverape.org/forensics/sexual-assault-forensics/codis

CODIS
1. What is CODIS?
CODIS is the acronym for the Combined DNA Index System and is the generic term used to describe the FBI’s program of support for criminal justice DNA databases as well as the software used to run these databases. The National DNA Index System or NDIS is considered one part of CODIS, the national level, containing the DNA profiles contributed by federal, state, and local participating forensic laboratories.
CODIS DNA Databases
2. How do these DNA databases using CODIS work?
For example, in the case of a sexual assault where an evidence kit is collected from the victim, a DNA profile of the suspected perpetrator is developed from the swabs in the kit. The forensic unknown profile attributed to the suspected perpetrator is searched against their state database of convicted offender and arrestee profiles (contained within the Convicted Offender and Arrestee Indices, if that state is authorized to collect and database DNA samples from arrestees). If there is a candidate match in the Convicted Offender or Arrestee Index, the laboratory will go through procedures to confirm the match and, if confirmed, will obtain the identity of the suspected perpetrator. The DNA profile from the evidence is also searched against the state’s database of crime scene DNA profiles called the Forensic Index. If there is a candidate match in the Forensic Index, the laboratory goes through the confirmation procedures and, if confirmed, the match will have linked two or more crimes together. The law enforcement agencies involved in these cases are then able to share the information obtained on each of the cases and possibly develop additional leads.

3. What happens after there is a hit in the DNA database?
CODIS was designed to compare a target DNA record against the DNA records contained in the database. Once a match is identified by the CODIS software, the laboratories involved in the match exchange information to verify the match and establish coordination between their two agencies. The match of the forensic DNA record against the DNA record in the database may be used to establish probable cause to obtain an evidentiary DNA sample from the suspect. The law enforcement agency can use this documentation to obtain a court order authorizing the collection of a known biological reference sample from the offender. The casework laboratory can then perform a DNA analysis on the known biological sample so that this analysis can be presented as evidence in court.

4. How do laboratories count CODIS hits?
The procedure used for counting hits gives credit to those laboratories involved in analyzing and entering the relevant DNA records into CODIS. The system’s hits are tracked as either an offender hit (where the identity of a potential suspect is generated) or as a forensic hit (where the DNA profiles obtained from two or more crime scenes are linked but the source of these profiles remains unknown). These hits are counted at the state and national levels. CODIS was established by Congress to assist in providing investigative leads for law enforcement in cases where no suspect has yet been identified; therefore a CODIS hit provides new investigative information on these cases. The hits are reported as “Investigations Aided,” thus enabling the FBI to measure the effectiveness of both the CODIS software and National DNA Index System; see NDIS statistics by state for more information.

5. Do laboratories track conviction rates based on the CODIS hit?
Laboratories that participate in the National DNA Index System are not required to track local or state conviction rates based on CODIS hits. As discussed above, CODIS was designed to assist law enforcement by providing potential investigative information in those cases in which crime scene evidence has yielded a DNA profile but no suspect has been identified. Once the hit information is provided to law enforcement, neither the FBI nor the local laboratory is typically notified as to the resolution of the investigation-aided case.

6. Why do laboratories only send out the hit notifications to the law enforcement contributor?
A law enforcement agency sends the crime scene evidence to the forensic DNA laboratory for analysis and production of a DNA record. At the time of the hit, there may not be an open or active investigation or other judicial proceeding and, therefore, the submitting law enforcement agency becomes the laboratory’s point of contact for hit notification.

7. What DNA information is stored in these databases?
The DNA profile, also known as a DNA type, is stored in the database. For Forensic STR DNA analysis, the DNA profile consists of one or two alleles at the 13 CODIS Core Loci.

8. Is any personal information relating to the convicted offenders, arrestees, or detainees stored in these DNA databases?
No names or other personal identifiers of the offenders, arrestees, or detainees are stored using the CODIS software (Available metadata, such as the date of birth, may be included in missing persons records stored at NDIS.) Only the following information is stored and can be searched at the national level:


The DNA profile—the set of identification characteristics or numerical representation at each of the various loci analyzed;
The Agency Identifier of the agency submitting the DNA profile;
The Specimen Identification Number—generally a number assigned sequentially at the time of sample collection. This number does not correspond to the individual’s social security number, criminal history identifier, or correctional facility identifier; and
The DNA laboratory personnel associated with a DNA profile analysis.


9. What precautions are taken for safeguarding the information in these DNA databases?
The computer terminals/servers containing the CODIS software are located in physically secure space at a criminal justice agency. Access to these computers is limited to only those individuals authorized to use CODIS and approved by the FBI. Communications between participating federal, state, and local laboratories occur over a wide area network accessible to only criminal justice agencies approved by the FBI.

Pursuant to federal law (the DNA Identification Act of 1994), DNA data is confidential. Access is restricted to criminal justice agencies for law enforcement identification purposes. Defendants are also permitted access to the samples and analyses performed in connection with their cases. If all personally identifiable information is removed, DNA profile information may be accessed by criminal justice agencies for a population statistics database, for identification research and protocol development purposes, or for quality control purposes. The unauthorized disclosure of DNA data in the National DNA database is subject to a criminal penalty not to exceed $250,000.
The National DNA Index System
10. What is the National DNA Index System (NDIS)?
NDIS is the acronym for the “National DNA Index System” and is one part of CODIS—the national level—containing the DNA profiles contributed by federal, state, and local participating forensic laboratories. NDIS was implemented in October 1998. All 50 states, the District of Columbia, the federal government, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory, and Puerto Rico participate in NDIS.

The DNA Identification Act of 1994 (42 U.S.C. §14132) authorized the establishment of this National DNA Index. The DNA Act specifies the categories of data that may be maintained in NDIS (convicted offenders, arrestees, legal, detainees, forensic [casework], unidentified human remains, missing persons, and relatives of missing persons) as well as requirements for participating laboratories relating to quality assurance, privacy, and expungement.

11. What are the specific requirements for a state’s participation in the National DNA Index?
The DNA Identification Act (42 U.S.C. §14132(b)) specifies the requirements for participation in the National DNA Index System (NDIS) and the DNA data that may be maintained at NDIS (convicted offender, arrestees, legal, detainees, forensic [casework], unidentified human remains, missing persons, and relatives of missing persons). The DNA Identification Act requires the following:


That the laboratories participating in the National DNA Index comply with the Quality Assurance Standards issued by the FBI Director;
That the laboratories submitting the DNA records are accredited by a nonprofit professional association of persons actively engaged in forensic science that is nationally recognized within the forensic science community;
That the laboratories submitting the DNA records undergo an external audit every two years to demonstrate compliance with the FBI Director’s Quality Assurance Standards;
That the laboratories are federal, state, or local criminal justice agencies (“or the Secretary of Defense in accordance with section 1565 of title 10, United States Code”); and
That access to the DNA samples and records is limited in accordance with federal law.

States seeking to participate in NDIS sign a Memorandum of Understanding with the FBI Laboratory documenting their agreement to abide by the DNA Identification Act requirements as well as record-keeping and other operational procedures governing the uploading of DNA data, expungements, CODIS users, audits, etc.

12. Are there approved accrediting agencies?
Federal law requires that laboratories submitting DNA data to NDIS are accredited by a nonprofit professional association of persons actively engaged in forensic science that is nationally recognized within the forensic science community. The following entities have been determined to satisfy this definition: the American Association for Laboratory Accreditation (A2LA), the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors/Laboratory Accreditation Board (ASCLD/LAB), and ANSI-ASQ National Accreditation Board (ANAB).

13. What are the access requirements for the DNA samples and records?

The DNA Identification Act, §14132(b)(3), specifies the access requirements for the DNA samples and records “maintained by federal, state, and local criminal justice agencies (or the Secretary of Defense in accordance with section 1565 of title 10, United States Code),” and “allows disclosure of stored DNA samples and DNA analyses only:
to criminal justice agencies for law enforcement identification purposes;
in judicial proceedings, if otherwise admissible pursuant to applicable statutes or rules;
for criminal defense purposes, to a defendant, who shall have access to samples and analyses performed in connection with the case in which such defendant is charged; or
if personally identifiable information is removed, for a population statistics database, for identification research and protocol development purposes, or for quality control purposes.”


14. What if a state’s law on access to the DNA samples and profiles is different from the federal provisions?
If a state has signed the Memorandum of Understanding with the FBI to participate in NDIS, that state has agreed to comply with the Federal DNA Identification Act, including the limited access requirements. To the extent that these access and disclosure provisions of the Federal DNA Act conflict with a state’s DNA database law, the state has agreed to the provisions of the Federal DNA Act superseding the state law for purposes of NDIS participation. That is, if a state DNA database law permits access to the DNA samples and analyses in the state DNA database for purposes not contained in the Federal DNA Act (i.e., humanitarian purposes), and that state is participating in NDIS, then the state has agreed to comply with the more restrictive federal access provisions.

15. Is the defendant entitled to access the DNA samples and analyses of other individuals?
Under the DNA Identification Act, the defendant may have access to the samples and analyses performed in connection with his or her case for criminal defense purposes (42 U.S.C. §14132(b)(3)(C)). This provision permits access to the results of any analyses of samples taken from the defendant and any analyses developed from the crime scene evidence in the case for which the defendant is charged. This provision does not authorize access for the defendant to samples and analyses that were not developed in connection with his or her case (such as other offenders’ DNA profiles). Nor does this provision in the Federal DNA Act authorize access for the defendant to all of the DNA records in the National DNA Index System.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/laboratory/biometric-analysis/codis/codis-and-ndis-fact-sheet

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