Hinterkaifeck and Villisca Axe Murder and JonBenet Ramsey

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Hinterkaifeck and Villisca Axe Murder and JonBenet Ramsey

Post by redpill on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:25 pm

over at crimeshots i posted on the Villisca Axe Murder and JonBenet Ramsey.

inspector rex was one poster who saw it. he and i talked about it. iirc he thinks it was a relative of the family. i believe it was a serial killer as there were reports of other axe murders around this time frame, possibly traveling by train.

the forum closed down. my apprentice superdave banned me before i had a chance to move the thread here.

in the Villisca Axe Murder the killer hid out in the attic of the home when the family and friends returned home. they know this bc they found cigarette butts in the attic, but the church going family didn't smoke.

he entered when the family went to church. he then smoked cigarettes in the attic then when everyone was asleep, came down and killed them all with an axe

the Hinterkaifeck murders, based on eye witness testimony and crime scene, seems to suggest that the killer slipped into the home and lived there undetected. at some point he killed the family as well.

the previous maid said she thought the house was haunted. and the house was cared for some time.

the relevance to JonBenet Ramsey

maybe when the Ramseys threw a house party, a teenager or someone, slipped undetected and hid out, perhaps in the basement. this perp would have a chance to leave the home via basement window, hence the scuff marks and suitcase.

it would be roughly similar to the intruder in the Hinterkaifeck/Villisca Axe Murder

then, on Christmas eve, the killer struck, abducted Jonbenet and then killed her.

i would have no idea who this person is, and possibly this person never offended before or since.

perhaps a detailed accounting of everyone in the home and taking their DNA is what is required.

reference from wiki

The Villisca axe murders occurred between the evening of June 9, 1912, and early morning of June 10, 1912, in the town of Villisca in southwestern Iowa. The six members of the Moore family and two house guests were found bludgeoned in the Moore residence. All eight victims, including six children, had severe head wounds from an axe. A lengthy investigation yielded several suspects, one of whom was tried twice. The first trial ended in a hung jury and the second in an acquittal. The crime remains unsolved.

The Moore family consisted of parents Josiah B. (aged 49), Sarah (née Montgomery) (39), and their four children: Herman Montgomery (11), Mary Katherine (10), Arthur Boyd (7), and Paul Vernon (5). An affluent family, the Moores were well-known and well-liked in their community.[1] On June 9, 1912, [Mary]?Katherine Moore invited Ina Mae (Cool and Lena Gertrude Stillinger (12) to spend the night at the Moore residence. That evening, the visiting girls and the Moore family attended the Presbyterian church where they participated in the Children's Day Program, which Sarah Moore had coordinated. After the program ended at 9:30 p.m., the Moores and the Stillinger sisters walked to the Moores' house, arriving between 9:45 and 10 p.m.

At 7 a.m. the next day, Mary Peckham, the Moores' neighbor, became concerned after she noticed that the Moore family had not come out to do their morning chores. Peckham knocked on the Moores' door. When nobody answered, she tried to open the door and discovered that it was locked. Peckham let the Moores' chickens out and called Ross Moore, Josiah Moore's brother. Like Peckham, Moore received no response when he knocked on the door and shouted. He unlocked the front door with his copy of the house key. While Peckham stood on the porch, Moore went into the parlor and opened the guest bedroom door, where he found Ina and Lena Stillinger's bodies on the bed. Moore immediately told Peckham to call Hank Horton, Villisca's primary peace officer, who arrived shortly thereafter. Horton's search of the house revealed that the entire Moore family and the two Stillinger girls had been bludgeoned to death. The murder weapon, an axe belonging to Josiah, was found in the guest room where the Stillinger sisters were found.

Doctors concluded that the murders had taken place between midnight and 5 a.m.[2] Two spent cigarettes in the attic suggested that the killer or killers patiently waited in the attic until the Moore family and the Stillinger guests were asleep. The killer(s) began in the master bedroom, where Josiah and Sarah Moore were sleeping. Josiah received more blows from the axe than any other victim; his face had been cut so much that his eyes were missing. The killer(s) used the blade of the axe on Josiah while using the blunt end on the rest of the victims. Then the killer(s) went into the children's rooms and bludgeoned Herman, Katherine, Boyd, and Paul in the head in the same manner as their parents. The killer(s) returned to the master bedroom to inflict more blows on the elder Moores, knocking over a shoe that had filled with blood. Afterward, the killer(s) moved downstairs to the guest bedroom and killed Ina and Lena.

Investigators believed that all of the victims except for Lena Stillinger had been asleep when murdered. They thought that she was awake and tried to fight back, as she was found lying crosswise on the bed, and with a defensive wound on her arm. Lena's nightgown was pushed up to her waist and she was wearing no undergarments, leading to law enforcement speculation that the killer(s) sexually molested her or attempted to do so.

of importance

Doctors concluded that the murders had taken place between midnight and 5 a.m.[2] Two spent cigarettes in the attic suggested that the killer or killers patiently waited in the attic until the Moore family and the Stillinger guests were asleep. The killer(s) began in the master bedroom, where Josiah and Sarah Moore were sleeping. Josiah received more blows from the axe than any other victim; his face had been cut so much that his eyes were missing.

I find it astonishing that Josiah got all these blows with an axe, with his wife sleeping nearby, and all the other children in the house, and all except Lena slept through it.

How is it possible no one except Lena woke up?

perhaps more than one axe killer that night?


Hinterkaifeck was a small farmstead situated between the Bavarian towns of Ingolstadt and Schrobenhausen, approximately 70 kilometres (43 mi) north of Munich. On the evening of March 31, 1922, the six inhabitants of the farm were killed with a mattock. The murders remain unsolved.

The six victims were the farmer Andreas Gruber (63) and his wife Cäzilia (72); their widowed daughter Viktoria Gabriel (35); Viktoria's children, Cäzilia (7) and Josef (2); and the maid, Maria Baumgartner (44).

Hinterkaifeck was never an official place name. The name was used for the remote farmstead of the hamlet of Kaifeck, located nearly 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) north of the main part of Kaifeck and hidden in the woods (the prefix Hinter, part of many German place names, means behind), part of the town of Wangen, which was incorporated into Waidhofen in 1971.

A few days prior to the crime, farmer Andreas Gruber told neighbors about discovering footprints in the snow leading from the edge of the forest to the farm, but none leading back. He also spoke about hearing footsteps in the attic and finding an unfamiliar newspaper on the farm. Furthermore, the house keys went missing several days before the murders. None of this was reported to the police prior to the attack.

Six months earlier, the previous maid had left the farm, claiming that it was haunted; the new maid, Maria Baumgartner, arrived on the farm on the day of the attack and was killed hours later.

Exactly what happened on that Friday evening cannot be said for certain. It is believed that the older couple, as well as their daughter Viktoria, and her daughter, Cäzilia, were all lured into the barn one by one, where they were killed. The perpetrator(s) then went into the house where they killed two‑year‑old Josef, who was sleeping in his cot in his mother's bedroom, as well as the maid, Maria Baumgartner, in her bedchamber.

On the following Tuesday, April 4, neighbors came to the farmstead because none of its inhabitants had been seen for a few days. The postman had noticed that the post from the previous Saturday was still where he had left it. Furthermore, young Cäzilia had neither turned up for school on Monday, nor had she been there on Saturday.


Inspector Georg Reingruber and his colleagues from the Munich Police Department investigated the killings. More than 100 suspects have been questioned throughout the years, with the most recent questioning taking place in 1986. None of the questioning yielded any results.

The day after the discovery of the bodies, court physician Johann Baptist Aumüller performed the autopsies in the barn. It was established that a mattock was the most likely murder weapon. Evidence showed that the younger Cäzilia had been alive for several hours after the assault — she had torn her hair out in tufts while lying in the straw, next to the bodies of her grandparents and her mother. The skulls of the corpses were sent to Munich, where clairvoyants examined them, to no avail.[1]

The police first suspected the motive to be robbery, and they interrogated traveling craftsmen, vagrants, and several inhabitants from the surrounding villages. This theory was abandoned when a large amount of money was found in the house. It is believed that the perpetrator(s) remained at the farm for several days – someone had fed the cattle and eaten food in the kitchen, and the neighbors saw smoke from the chimney during the weekend – and would have easily found the money if robbery had been the intention.

The death of Karl Gabriel, Viktoria's husband (who had been reported killed in the French trenches in World War I), was called into question. His body had never been found. However, most of his fellow soldiers reported seeing him die, and the police believed their reports.

Two-year-old Josef was rumored to be the son of Viktoria and her father Andreas, who had an incestuous relationship that was documented in court and known in the village.[2] A neighboring farmer named Lorenz Schlittenbauer publicly claimed to be Josef's father, and paid alimony to Viktoria and Andreas. Shortly before the murders, Viktoria was preparing to sue Schlittenbauer, who by then had a wife and a baby, for alimony. Schlittenbauer was part of the original search party that found the corpses, and he disturbed the bodies before the police arrived. The police questioned Schlittenbauer extensively but were unable to find concrete evidence linking him to the crime.[3]

In 2007, the students of the Polizeifachhochschule (Police Academy) in Fürstenfeldbruck examined the case using modern criminal investigation techniques. They concluded that it is impossible to definitively solve the crime after so much time had passed. The primitive investigation techniques available at the time of the murders yielded little evidence, and in the decades since the murders, evidence has been lost and suspects have since died. Despite these setbacks, the students did establish a prime suspect, but did not name the suspect out of respect for still‑living relatives.[4]

in Hinterkaifeck there is a strong suspicion that the killer hid out in the home undetected, possibly in the attic. it was a farm so plenty of places to hide.

something like this could have happen to the Ramsey's though i would have no way of identifying such an individual.

given the Ramseys lived in a fairly large house, the basement window is a possible way to go in and out of the home, and they threw parties, one party invitee could have slipped undetected and hid in the basement where everyone slept.

Hinterkaifeck and Villisca shows this is possible.

IIRC there was another crime here in the US that this happened, where the killer managed to live in the home undetected in a closet, but I forget the name and cannot locate it via searches.

safety lesson - be careful who you invite in large homes.

If you only knew the POWER of the Daubert side

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