Jesus myth theory, Tacitus on Christ, and real world crime of Richard Streicher

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Jesus myth theory, Tacitus on Christ, and real world crime of Richard Streicher

Post by redpill on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:16 pm

i'm writing this on wed oct 18, 2017

i'm assuming really there are only 1-2 people who read my blog on a regular basis, one of whom is murdermysteryreader the other rootlesswriter

anyhow, one debate i had some participation in is the jesus myth theory.

wikipedia has a long article on it, also called christ myth theory

in a nutshell, it is the claim jesus as described in the bible, never existed. the new testament earliest documents, the pauline letters don't speak of a flesh and blood jesus but a purely divine figure of revelation. the gospels were fictions written letter by providing a historical setting.

this is actually a plausible theory. paul and revelation of john do speak of jesus as a purely spiritual entity. in revelation, jesus is seen as events that occurred in heaven.

Joseph smith claims he met jesus and so mormonism was born.

actual new testament scholars reject this as a fringe theory, akin to the fringe theories you find on the internet. while paul doesn't say much about jesus, he does speak of jesus as having been born of a woman, born under the law, born as the seed of david, he was crucified, he met jesus brother james.

of course that doesn't persuade jesus mythicists.

now one of the most damaging pieces of evidence against jesus myth theory and again this is known to them, is Tacitus on Christ

he Annals passage (15.44), which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD.[3]

The key part of the passage reads as follows (translation from Latin by A. J. Church and W. J. Brodribb, 1876):

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Jud├Ža, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

(In Latin: ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiablilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.[12])

I ask jesus mythicists how in using normal accepted standards of understanding history and evaluating evidence in history can you claim jesus never existed, when Tacitus basically confirms jesus did exist. obviously anyone can have a fringe theory, and the jesus myth theory sounds like a fringe theory reading of the NT.

Jesus myth points out the date Tactius wrote

116 AD, about events that happened around 33AD

therefore it is not historical evidence Jesus existed.

this is not the judgment of actual historians mind you, but their own fringe viewpoint.

I think we can agree that if there is any historical truthfulness in what Tacitus wrote in 116AD, about events in 33AD, that the Jesus myth theory is dead. When Paul wrote of Jesus as born of a woman, did he mean born of a real woman sometime before 1CE, or an imaginary woman in the celestial realm?

Jesus mythicists claim there is NO evidence of jesus existing. Tacitus provides us evidence, written 116AD. Jesus mythicists claim that is not evidence. there is NO evidence of jesus existing

the question in my mind is what about the real world.

do Jesus mythisits claims hold up in the real world?

i came across this article

murder of Richard Streicher age 7, sometime after 4:30 p.m. March 7, 1935

here's a full article

Murder of 7-year-old remains unsolved after 80 years

Eighty years ago, someone got away with murder in Ypsilanti.

Richard Streicher Jr., a 7-year-old boy, went out sledding on a late winter evening never to return. He was found days later underneath a footbridge over the Huron River with 14 stab wounds. Officials initially thought it might be the work of a "sex maniac" or some other local "degenerate."

Despite a Michigan-wide murder probe in the days, weeks and months that followed, a motive was never determined, the weapon never found, the case never solved.

All those involved in the case -- the police officers, judges, prosecutors, the boy's family and likely the murderer himself -- are gone now. All that remains is one of Washtenaw County's coldest murder cases.

Missing boy

Streicher was the only son of Mr. and Mrs. Richard Streicher, who lived at 404 North Huron in Ypsilanti. The boy's father was employed at the Streicher Tool and Die Co., which was probably owned by his father-in-law, Theodore Mueller, a wealthy and prominent auto engineer who lived near Scott Lake in Pontiac.

Mrs. Streicher last saw her son around 4:30 p.m. March 7, when he said he was going outside to play in the snow.

The boy grabbed his sled, which was always tilted against the side of the house in a specific way, and went to play on a nearby hill.

It was hours before his parents discovered he hadn't come home.

"That evening, his parents were having an argument," said James Mann of the Ypsilanti Historical Society. "They then realized Richard was no where to be found."

Mann said the boy's parents borrowed a car and went looking for him. They also searched nearby Island Park, which is what Frog Island Park was called then. Mann said the Streichers crossed the new concrete footbridge over the Huron River to get there.

It was the same bridge where their dead, frozen son would be found the next day.

Frozen body

Thirteen-year-old Buck Holt, a Central High School student, was crossing the main bridge on Cross Street the next day around 1 p.m. with his younger brother when he saw small tracks in the snow.

"Thinking it was a muskrat track ... Buck followed it and discovered the body of Richard lying well under the bridge on a ledge of earth which has only about two feet clearance from the top of the footbridge," The Ann Arbor News reported at the time.

The number of times 7-year-old Richard Streicher Jr. was stabbed changes in news stories. Authorities initially said he'd been stabbed six times and once in the neck. Later reports, after the autopsy, say the boy was stabbed as many as 14 times.

It also appeared he'd been beaten on the head. Since there was no significant blood under the bridge, police worked with the theory he'd been killed elsewhere and the body moved there. Since it was frozen, officials conjectured the body had gone in the river at some point before being placed under the bridge.

"Police found that the body was frozen in place," Mann said. "Their theory was that the killer originally carried him down to the river, changed his mind for whatever reason, then carried him back up - the body was soaking wet - and placed it underneath the pedestrian bridge where it was frozen to the ground."

'Sex maniac' is sought

A day later, on March 9, The Ann Arbor News published a story with the headline: 'Sex maniac' is sought in boy's murder'.

Washtenaw County prosecutor Albert Rapp told The News that the multiple stab wounds in the chest and head of the young victim indicated that the killing was "the work of a frenzied sex maniac."

This theory was later discounted and an autopsy did not reveal that there had been any sexual assault.

But the prosecutor admitted there were no suspects. All they knew was some of the boys Streicher was sledding with said they saw the 7-year-old go off with a man in a black coat.

"We have absolutely nothing to go on," Rapp said a few days later.

Another clue was the boy's sled was at his house, though leaned against it in a way the boy didn't normally leave it.

"One of the mysteries that still haunts me is that they found the sled leaning against the house in the place he always put it, but it was the opposite of how he always placed it," Mann said. "The question becomes: who put it there. It was never answered."

From the get-go, a lack of clues had speculation running wild. Even officials disagreed about where the murder took place and why. While the prosecutor believed it was sexual in nature early on, the Ypsilanti Police Chief Ralph Southard wasn't quite buying it.

"I think there is a motive," he said. "I can't feel there is anything else than revenge. There was no evidence of sex mania. It might have been a maniac with a lust for blood."

Story of the day

With no suspects or leads, police began rounding up local "degenerates" and questioning them.

They went to the Oliver hotel, where the proprietor had seen a man "accused of taking indecent liberties with small boys several months ago, but was not prosecuted when the father of one of the boys refused to sign a complaint in order to spare his son the embarrassment of a trial."

They interviewed the man, but it didn't pan out. Police interviewed other men in town with criminal pasts, but still nothing panned out.

"Pretty much anybody who had the slightest connection with Richard Streicher was a suspect at some point or another," Mann said.

Meanwhile, the case continued to gain nationwide notoriety. It had only been a few years since the "Torch Murders," when in 1931 four teenagers were shot, beaten and the girls raped. Ypsilanti had become known for murder.

"It was the major story of the day," Mann said. "Everybody wanted to know about it. Everyone was scared for the safety on their children. They didn't know if there was a motive behind this particular murder or if there was someone preying on children."

The case prompted Gov. Frank Fitzgerald to put the Michigan State Police in charge of the investigation.

"The Ypsilanti police really weren't equipped for this sort of thing. This brought national attention," Mann said.

State police checked out tips in Illinois, where the boy's former uncle lived. He was a suspect possibly because he was estranged from the family after asking the boy's rich grandfather for money, but also possibly because he was Italian, something the papers pointed out at the time.

Investigators also went to Elkhart, Indiana, where the Streichers formerly lived, to talk to a former neighbor.

They interviewed an ex-con named "Bloody Mike" and a Depression-era hobo who lived in a boxcar at the Shanghai pit west of Ypsilanti.

But the investigation still went no where.

Cold case

The boy's parents were also questioned extensively. The flamboyant attorney Clinton I. LeForge, noted for his extensive collection of Native American artifacts, represented the couple.

He admitted to the press that he'd filed divorce papers on behalf of Mrs. Streicher -- who, as was the standard of the times, was never listed with her first name in the papers -- a few years earlier.

"He ended up taking truth serum to answer questions concerning the case," Mann said.

According to the newspapers of the time, the parents were never considered serious suspects.

Mann said long ago he'd heard that a former Ypsilanti Michigan State Police post commander had said police knew who did it, but just never had enough evidence to charge him.

Over the next few years, the investigation dried up. A judge eventually held a grand jury, which heard testimony from 39 people involved in the case.

Still nothing. The story faded from the headlines. People moved on.

Buck Holt, the teen who found the body, was arrested for stealing a car, sent to a "training school" in Washington D.C., where he escaped, according to a news report.

LeForge was later disbarred for embezzling money from an estate, according to Mann. He died in a "freak accident" operating a sawmill at his home, when a flying piece of wood crushed his chest, according to a newspaper report at the time.

The Streichers eventually moved to Grand Rapids.

Seven-year-old Richard Streicher is buried at Highland Cemetery in an unmarked grave, murdered without a trace.

Ypsilanti boy who died in 80-year-old cold case gets a gravestone
Updated on October 16, 2016 at 8:07 AM Posted on October 15, 2016 at 4:51 PM
By John Counts

YPSILANTI, MI - Had Richard Streicher Jr. lived, he'd be in his late 80s, just like Paul Woodside, a school chum who was one of the last people to see the Ypsilanti boy alive in 1935.

"He was kind of a quiet boy," Woodside said. "As far as I know, I'm the only one around here who remembers him."

Woodside was among about 30 people who gathered at Highland Cemetery in Ypsilanti the morning of Saturday, Oct. 15. They came to dedicate a gravestone for Streicher, who has rested in an unmarked grave there since being brutally murdered.

The killer was never caught, despite an aggressive, years-long investigation. Woodside, like Streicher, was only 7 years old at the time. He doesn't remember much, though he did recall interviews with police.

He relayed the same story to The Ann Arbor News 80 years later.

"We walked home from school together," he said. "He lived up there on Cross Street. I lived on Prospect Street. We separated right there. And that was the last I see him. I was probably one of the last people to see him alive, besides the killer, I guess."

What happened next filled area newspapers for days, weeks and years to come: Streicher went home to fetch his sled to hit the hills near present-day Frog Island on the Huron River. His frozen body was found the next day jammed under a footbridge. He'd been beaten and stabbed 14 times, according to newspaper reports at the time.

The unsolved crime became part of Ypsilanti's macabre local folklore.

Janice Anschuetz first heard about the case when she moved to the town 50 years ago.

"It's a very sad story that haunts us all," she said.

Unmarked grave

It was one of those stories that would surface every five or 10 years in the news media, according to Tina Atkinson-Kalusha of Highland Cemetery.

"It would make everyone think about it again," she said. "A volunteer of mine told me the story about him, how he was here in an unmarked grave. At that point (about eight years ago), we tried to raise enough for a monument, but couldn't get enough momentum."

In December 2015, The Ann Arbor News published a story about the cold case murder that caught the eye of John Sisk, a Jackson resident and the manager of a St. Vincent de Paul thrift store. Sisk was saddened by the detail that Streicher's grave never got a headstone, something Ypsilanti historian James Mann said occurred because the notorious nature of the slaying could have brought unwanted attention to the monument.

let's clarify what happened here, in context of the real world vs jesus myth theory.

Richard Streicher was 7, in March 7, 1935 when he was murdered. Which implies he was born around 1928. He had friends about same age as him, who were alive and eye witness when they met him personally and knew him personally and knew of his murder at that time and place when it happened.

In Saturday, Oct. 15, 2016 Richard Streicher friends who knew him when he was alive created a tombstone and memorial for him.

let's look at the dates

Richard Streicher was 7, in March 7, 1935 when he was murdered.
80 years later, his friends who are still alive

Paul Woodside, a school chum who was one of the last people

Saturday, Oct. 15, 2016 was present when a tombstone was presented for Richard Streicher

Paul Woodside, was friends with and was one of the last persons to see Richard Streicher alive on March 7, 1935
80 years later, Saturday, Oct. 15, 2016 was present when a tombstone was presented for Richard Streicher

Paul Woodside, alive and present March 7, 1935 and Saturday, Oct. 15, 2016

Paul Woodside in Oct 2016 was able to report events that happened with his friend Richard Streicher March 1935

the NT claims Jesus was crucified spring 33AD Tacitus reports and writes this down on 116AD

based on the real world, the real world of real people, people like Paul Woodside who reported events in Oct 2016 that happened in March 1935 the murder Richard Streicher

Tacitus who was a Roman historian, who obviously treated christian sources and Christianity with hostility, could have had historicallly valid information regarding events of spring 33AD.

It is not at all clear that the earliest sources of Jesus, Paul and his letters, while they don't say much about Jesus, when they do talk about jesus as being born of a woman, crucified, and he had brothers James, were speaking of a purely celestial event. Then there are gospels which contain historical information using secular methodologies for understanding history. Then we have Tacitus.

What Paul Woodside in Oct 2016 relating events in March 1935 show, is that Tacitus may have had access to valid sources of historical information, writing 116 AD about events in 33 AD, including eye witness still alive. this completely refutes the christ myth theory. jesus mythicists reject tacitus since you cannot prove where and how tacitus obtained his information. Tacitus was a historian who wrote all kinds of events of the past of his time. If Jesus mythicists want to reject his confirmation of jesus historicity, why not reject everything Tacitus and other roman historians have written just to be consistent. and again, in the real world example of Paul Woodside shows Tacitus may have relied on eye witnesses to the event when he relates his information, or people who knew eye witnesses.

Jesus mythicists have the burden to prove Tacitus is completely unreliable on this point, unfortunately there are other sources such as the gospels and Josephus as well while using the same standards for other historical personage.

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