Patsy Depo: Part 2

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Patsy Depo: Part 2

Post by Mama2JML on Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:01 pm

Page 36
1 Is that what you remember --
2 A. That seems to be fairly --
3 Q. -- as to the number of times?
4 A. -- fairly accurate, yes.
5 Q. Were you ever given an explanation by
6 law enforcement authorities as to why they were
7 asking you to come in so many times to give
8 exemplars, why they needed you to give exemplars
9 over a period of five different dates?
10 A. I don't remember them really saying
11 why they needed more.
12 Q. Did anyone else, without telling me
13 what was actually said, give you a reason as to
14 why you were being asked for so many exemplars?
15 MR. WOOD: And here you are not to
16 give him, nor is he asking you to give him any
17 information about any discussion you had between
18 yourself and your attorneys, if there was any
19 such discussion. He is not entitled to know
20 that, and he is not asking you about that.
21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Was there anybody
22 else?
23 For instance, maybe Lou Smit may have
24 asked you, maybe somebody from Alex Hunter's
25 office might have asked you or told you or

Page 37
1 whatever, something that is not a privileged
2 communication between you and your attorneys, if
3 you remember.
4 A. No. Just every time they asked me
5 to do it, I willingly gave it.
6 Q. Now I am going to ask you about your
7 reaction to it. Were you surprised that you were
8 asked for so many exemplars, to come back five
9 times, in fact? Were you surprised by that?
10 A. Somewhat, yes.
11 Q. Were you concerned about that?
12 A. I was not concerned, particularly.
13 Q. Do you know if anybody at any time
14 expressed an opinion as to whether you were the
15 author of the ransom note while you were doing
16 this?
17 A. During the handwriting exemplar
18 process?
19 Q. Yes. When you were being asked to
20 give handwriting exemplars, did anybody in law
21 enforcement express the opinion that they thought
22 you were the ransom note writer?
23 A. I don't recall them ever saying that.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody
25 ever expressed the opinion in front of you that

Page 38
1 John was the ransom note writer?
2 A. I never heard anyone say that.
3 Q. Now, what I am going to do is I need
4 some -- we are going to go through a little
5 housekeeping. I am sorry. I just have to do
6 this for purposes of laying foundations.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask you
8 to mark these as exhibits.
9 And, Lin, I am going to give you a
10 copy.
11 MR. WOOD: Okay.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: This is for
13 identification purposes.
14 Lin, if you want to look at that.
15 MR. WOOD: Is there a way to relate
16 this to the exhibits that we have --
17 MR. HOFFMAN: What I am going to do
18 is, basically, I would like to show these to Mrs.
19 Ramsey at this time and ask her in a foundational
20 way, one, whether she recognizes what she is
21 being shown, can she identify it, and can she
22 identify the handwriting.
23 MR. WOOD: Are these the exhibits
24 that are attached to the first set of --
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Page 39
1 MR. WOOD: Do you have them by
2 exhibit number so I can correlate?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I don't. Right
4 now I am doing it in a particular order, which
5 doesn't relate to that. Whether these are
6 ultimately used or not is another matter,
7 but right now I would like to mark this as
8 Exhibit 1.
9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-1 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am
12 going to show you a document that has been marked
13 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 for identification. I would
14 like you to look at it and take your time. I
15 am going to ask you if you recognize the
16 photograph.
17 MR. WOOD: Let me just say this for
18 the record, Darnay. I think you have given her
19 an enlarged copy of what was possibly one of the
20 exhibits to one of the reports that you filed
21 early in the case with respect to your mandatory
22 responses. And I think she has answered in
23 request for admissions to her best ability whether
24 she could decipher from those copies whether she
25 was the author of the handwriting.

Page 40
1 To the extent that you are giving her
2 the same exhibits but in a different form, either
3 larger or in color versus black and white, et
4 cetera, I just want to make sure that, if there
5 is any confusion down the road between her
6 ability to try to decipher it now and what she
7 looked at then, that that might be the
8 explanation.
9 So that is why I had asked if you
10 wanted to present her with the actual exhibits;
11 that would, I think, help us be able to look at
12 the same thing.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: I basically want her to
14 be able to see what it is. I am looking for
15 content, not --
16 MR. WOOD: Not comparison with other
17 copies of those from other sources.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: I want her to indicate
19 whether she recognizes the photograph.
20 MR. WOOD: That is fair.
21 THE WITNESS: I think I have seen
22 this photograph before.
23 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Can you identify,
24 without naming anybody in the photograph, can you
25 identify any of the individuals in the photograph?

Page 41
1 A. Just JonBenet.
2 Q. I would like you to now look at the
3 handwriting below the photograph. Do you
4 recognize the handwriting?
5 A. Not particularly.
6 Q. You say "not particularly." You don't
7 recognize this as being your handwriting; is that
8 correct?
9 A. I don't remember writing it. Is that
10 what you mean? I mean, I don't know. I may
11 have, but --
12 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting as
13 being your handwriting?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Now we are going to go to
16 another exhibit.
17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-2 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I
20 would like you to examine a document I have given
21 you that has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 2
22 for identification and ask you if you recognize
23 any of the photographs in the document.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I am going to ask you if you

Page 42
1 recognize any of the handwriting in the document.
2 A. Recognize it as mine or someone else's
3 or just --
4 Q. I will go to the next question. Do
5 you recognize any of the handwriting as being
6 your handwriting?
7 A. Not particularly.
8 Q. So you couldn't say, with any degree
9 of certainty, that that was your handwriting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Lin, I don't know what
13 you are doing with those.
14 MR. WOOD: You took the last one
15 back.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine. Sorry about
17 this. This is one of the more boring parts of
18 depositions.
19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-3 was marked for
20 identification.)
21 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
22 am going to ask you to look at Plaintiff's
23 Exhibit 3 marked for identification and ask you
24 whether or not you recognize this document.
25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 43
1 Q. What do you recognize it to be?
2 A. An entry form for the Boulder
3 Christmas parade.
4 Q. Have you ever seen this entry form
5 before today?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell me when you have seen
8 it, if you remember?
9 A. Well, I obviously saw it to fill it
10 out.
11 Q. Okay. That was my next question.
12 Do you recognize the handwriting in this entry
13 form?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you
16 recognize it to be?
17 A. My handwriting.
18 Q. So all of the handwriting on both
19 pages is your handwriting; is that correct? I
20 mean, no one else --
21 A. Well, this on the second page is
22 pretty blurry, but I believe it is mine.
23 Q. So nobody at this event filled in
24 part of it for you?
25 A. No.

Page 44
1 Q. You filled this in completely
2 yourself; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Now I am going to show you another
5 document which I am going to have the reporter
6 mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 for identification.
7 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-4 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
10 am going to ask you to look at a document that
11 I handed you which has been marked Plaintiff's
12 Exhibit 4 for identification. I am going to ask
13 you whether or not you recognize this document.
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. I am going to ask you if you
16 recognize the handwriting on the document.
17 A. I recognize my signature.
18 Q. Do you recognize any other written
19 part of the document as being your handwriting?
20 A. It looks similar, but I can't say for
21 sure.
22 Q. So are you uncertain as to whether
23 the additional handwriting is yours or not,
24 outside of the signature?
25 A. I am uncertain.

Page 45
1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
3 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 5
4 for identification.
5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-5 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, I
8 am going to ask you to look at a document which
9 has been labeled Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 for
10 identification. And I am going to ask you
11 whether or not you recognize it.
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What do you recognize it to be?
14 A. It looks like a greeting written on
15 the inside of a Christmas card.
16 Q. Do you remember writing a Christmas
17 card like this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I am going to ask you whether or not
20 you can identify the handwriting.
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting you
23 believe it to be?
24 A. Mine.
25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 46
1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
2 reporter to please mark this document Plaintiff's
3 Exhibit 6 for identification. It is two pages, I
4 believe.
5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-6 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to ask
8 you, Mrs. Ramsey, whether or not you can identify
9 the document that I have handed you, which is
10 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 for identification.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell me what the document is?
13 A. It is a handwritten note.
14 Q. Can you identify the handwriting?
15 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Now I am going to ask
18 the reporter to please mark this as Plaintiff's
19 Exhibit 7 for identification.
20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-7 was marked for
21 identification.)
22 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I
23 would like to know if you could identify the
24 document or, actually, the image or figure on
25 Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 marked for identification.

Page 47
1 A. No, I can't.
2 Q. I am going to ask you to look at the
3 handwriting and tell me if you can recognize the
4 handwriting.
5 A. This is such a bad copy. Do you
6 have the original?
7 Q. No, I don't. If you can't recognize
8 the handwriting, you simply say you cannot.
9 A. I cannot.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
12 court reporter to mark this document Plaintiff's
13 Exhibit 8 for identification.
14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-8 was marked for
15 identification.)
16 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I am going to
17 direct Mrs. Ramsey's attention to the writing that
18 looks like it is on a box that says "Ramsey
19 Xmas" and also, it looks like, some writing on
20 the lower right-hand side which just says
21 "Ramsey."
22 I am going to ask you to look at
23 that carefully, and I am going to ask her, first
24 of all, if she can identify to the best of her
25 ability what is in this photograph.

Page 48
1 A. It looks like pictures of boxes taken
2 through a window pane.
3 Q. Now, I am going to ask you if you
4 can recognize any of the handwriting.
5 A. This lower one may be mine, but I am
6 not sure.
7 Q. And the upper left, which says,
8 "Ramsey Xmas"?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. So you don't recognize it as being
11 your handwriting?
12 A. Not specifically, no.
13 Q. Thank you. Coming to the end.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like the
15 reporter to mark that as Plaintiff's Exhibit 9
16 for identification.
17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-9 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am
20 going to ask you -- I am not going to even try
21 to ask you what you are looking at. I am going
22 to ask you if you can see any of the handwriting
23 in this document.
24 MR. WOOD: Is that an admission that
25 nobody can even determine what the object is?

Page 49
1 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, the objects would
2 be subject -- one looks like a box on the lower
3 part, but I am not going to ask Mrs. Ramsey to
4 determine it. I am going to ask Mrs. Ramsey if
5 she can make out the handwriting. And if she
6 can, can she, with any degree of certainty, tell
7 me if she recognizes any of the handwriting.
8 THE WITNESS: It is pretty hard to
9 tell.
10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can simply say
11 no or you are not certain.
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Thank you.
14 A. If I can see the original, maybe.
15 Q. I understand, but based on this
16 document, you are not able to determine?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: I am going to ask the
20 reporter to mark this as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10
21 for identification.
22 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-10 was marked for
23 identification.)
24 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, what I
25 am showing you is a series of letters. I am

Page 50
1 not identifying their source. I am just simply
2 showing you a series of letters. I would like
3 you to look at them carefully.
4 Again, this is Plaintiff's Exhibit 10
5 for identification.
6 Can you, without knowing the source or
7 where these letters are from, identify any of
8 them?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Now, I would like you to also look
11 at the letters and ask me if you see any
12 similarities in the way in which these letters
13 are written. And we will just start from the
14 bottom. Looking at the B.
15 A. Ask you if I see any similarities?
16 Q. No. I am going to ask you to
17 comment on whether you see any similarities in
18 the handwriting.
19 MR. WOOD: Let me just ask you,
20 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document
21 examiner.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: I just want her
23 personal observation.
24 MR. WOOD: We don't know what
25 alterations have been done to these documents. I

Page 51
1 know where these documents came from. They came
2 from one of your experts.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: I would prefer you
4 don't identify the source --
5 MR. WOOD: Why not? She is entitled
6 to be --
7 MR. HOFFMAN: -- for the purpose of
8 this.
9 MR. WOOD: We are not here to play
10 games.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no.
12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, Darnay.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --
14 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, please.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, you can't
16 have a standing objection where you basically
17 counsel, give information to your client in your
18 objection, which is what you are doing right now.
19 I would like you to stop it.
20 MR. WOOD: Darnay.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: I have a right to show
22 her a document. For all you know, I am trying
23 to test her perception. You don't know what I
24 am doing in this.
25 MR. WOOD: Her perception --

Page 52
1 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying that
2 this means anything. I am asking her to look at
3 these letters, ask her if she recognizes any of
4 them, and then after doing that, asking her if
5 she can perceive any similarities in these
6 letters. That is all. Just as a lay person,
7 her personal observation. And I have a right to
8 do that. And I am going to ask her to do it.
9 MR. WOOD: I am not --
10 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't have to
11 identify the source. This could be an eye chart,
12 for all you know.
13 MR. WOOD: Darnay --
14 MR. HOFFMAN: For all you know, I am
15 testing her perception.
16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, it is not an eye
17 chart. It is a document that you --
18 MR. HOFFMAN: No, it is not. Don't
19 identify the document, Mr. Wood.
20 MR. WOOD: Are you going to let me
21 finish, Darnay?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going
23 to identify --
24 MR. WOOD: Let's take a break.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Not if you are going

Page 53
1 to have a standing objection.
2 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a
3 break now, and then I'll come back. And when I
4 get a chance to make my statement on the record
5 to perfect the record, we will start again. But
6 if are you not going to give me that fundamental
7 right, then we are not going to start again,
8 Darnay. Do you understand me? Because you are
9 not the judge.
10 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop
11 the deposition --
12 MR. WOOD: Let me finish.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: If you want to stop
14 the --
15 MR. WOOD: If you don't stop
16 interrupting me, we are going to have to stop.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: I have to interrupt you
18 if you are, in fact, going to give your client
19 information that you are not supposed to give
20 your client while I am asking her a specific
21 question, which is what you are trying to do
22 right now, at least in my opinion.
23 MR. WOOD: No, I am not.
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, you are.
25 MR. WOOD: You don't know what I am

Page 54
1 trying to do, because you won't let me do it.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: You are trying to
3 identify the source of this, and I don't want you
4 to do that for the purposes of this question.
5 MR. WOOD: We are going to take a
6 break now, and when I have the ability to make
7 my record without interruption and instruction
8 from you --
9 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like you to
10 make the colloquy.
11 MR. WOOD: You are not going to stop
12 interrupting; are you?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: I am not going to
14 basically let you give your client information in
15 a standing objection.
16 MR. WOOD: Darnay, Darnay, if I make
17 a statement on the record that is inappropriate,
18 you may take that up with Judge Carnes, and Judge
19 Carnes can determine whether I have
20 inappropriately instructed my client through an
21 objection. But you are not the judge, and you
22 are not going to make that decision today. You
23 have the right to say what you want to on this
24 record. I have that right, also.
25 So when you decide that we are going

Page 55
1 to play on that level playing field, let's get
2 started again. But you are not going to sit
3 here and be the judge and tell me what I am
4 going to do or not do, whether you like it or
5 agree with it or not.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood --
7 MR. WOOD: So we are now going to go
8 off the record and take a break.
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Mr. Wood, for the
10 purposes of -- before we go off the record and
11 take a break, I foresaw this as a possible
12 stumbling block or speed bump, and as a result,
13 Evan Altman was kind enough to call Judge Carnes'
14 office, and she is willing, in a phone call, to
15 make an immediate ruling on whether or not what I
16 am asking Mrs. Ramsey to do is proper and whether
17 or not your objection is proper. She is in her
18 office. She is available for an immediate
19 conference.
20 MR. WOOD: I have not been allowed
21 to make my statement. And if we want to address
22 with Judge Carnes at this point --
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
24 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. If the issue
25 to be addressed with Judge Carnes is whether I am

Page 56
1 allowed to make an objection without interruption
2 from you, then I will be happy to take that up
3 with Judge Carnes.
4 If we are going to take up an
5 objection of mine with Judge Carnes, I think I
6 fairly ought to have the right to state it on
7 the record.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: But I would like you
9 to make the statement to Judge Carnes before you
10 make a statement in front of your client on the
11 record basically notifying your client of
12 precisely what it is that I am doing with respect
13 to this, which I don't want you to do.
14 MR. WOOD: I don't know what you are
15 doing with this. I am not trying to make a
16 representation of that.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's talk to Judge
18 Carnes. Because we went through enough trouble
19 to establish, to call her office yesterday and
20 see if she was available for a conference,
21 because I foresaw this problem precisely coming
22 up.
23 MR. WOOD: I yet to understand what
24 you want to take up with Judge Carnes.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Let's call her. I

Page 57
1 will tell her. Quite frankly, I am going to ask
2 her whether or not -- I am going to have you
3 state your objection that you are going to give
4 on the record to her on the phone, and we are
5 going to find out whether or not she thinks it
6 is proper for you to make that objection.
7 And then if she rules it is proper
8 to make it in that form, you can make it in
9 that form.
10 MR. WOOD: So you want me to state
11 my objection for the first time on the phone with
12 Judge Carnes?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: That is correct.
14 MR. WOOD: So you are going to call
15 Judge Carnes -- excuse me.
16 You are going to call Judge Carnes to
17 address with her an objection that you think is
18 inappropriate that I haven't even been allowed to
19 make yet?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: No. You started to
21 make it, and it was clear from your making it
22 what you were trying to do, which is basically
23 make the equivalent of a standing -- you were
24 trying to give your client information improperly
25 in order to influence her answer.

Page 58
1 MR. WOOD: That is just pure bunk,
2 Darnay.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Sorry, but that is what
4 I see it to be. That is why we have Judge
5 Carnes waiting by the phone for us.
6 MR. WOOD: If you have an issue to
7 take up with Judge Carnes, you have a right to
8 do whatever you want to do. I don't have an
9 issue with Judge Carnes yet.
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, you may have it
11 if you don't get on the phone with us and talk
12 to her.
13 MR. WOOD: I am going to participate.
14 I am not going to allow you to ex parte a
15 conversation with Judge Carnes.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: No judge would allow an
17 ex parte communication. You know better than
18 that.
19 MR. WOOD: Why don't we define, so
20 we can read the record to her, exactly what the
21 controversy is at the moment because I still
22 don't understand it because I haven't been allowed
23 to state an objection. I might not even have an
24 objection.
25 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, in fact, I would

Page 59
1 like you to read back what you were about to
2 state as an objection, in fact.
3 MR. WOOD: Okay. I started off and
4 said -- you said, the question to Ms. Ramsey:
5 "I am going to ask you to comment on
6 whether you see any similarities in the
7 handwriting, and that is on this Exhibit 10,
8 without identifying it for her."
9 And I said: "Let me just ask you,
10 Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document
11 examiner.
12 "Mr. Hoffman: I just want her
13 personal observation.
14 "Mr. Wood: We don't know what
15 alterations have been done to these documents. I
16 know where these documents came from. They came
17 from one of your excerpts.
18 "Mr. Hoffman:" --
19 MR. HOFFMAN: That is the point at
20 which you are starting to give her information.
21 MR. WOOD: Excuse me.
22 "Mr. Hoffman: I would prefer you
23 don't identify the source.
24 "Mr. Wood: Why not? She is
25 entitled to," and then you interrupted, and I

Page 60
1 don't think we ever got any further.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: This is the area
3 that --
4 MR. WOOD: So the question is whether
5 or not, when you give her a document, is she
6 entitled to know the source of the document
7 before she answers questions about it --
9 MR. WOOD: -- let's put that issue
10 before Judge Carnes.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Yup.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the
13 video record.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: We are going to read
15 that statement. That is what I am objecting to,
16 what you are doing there. So we will read that
17 to Judge Carnes.
18 MR. WOOD: I think I understand what
19 we want to do with Judge Carnes, and that is to
20 ask her, when you question her about a document,
21 if she is entitled to know what the document is.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: No. A particular type
23 of document. Okay? Not all documents.
24 MR. WOOD: She is entitled to know
25 what the document is.

Page 61
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the
2 video record at 10:24.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: And I would like to
4 have this colloquy with the judge so that we
5 don't, basically, just sort of undermine the whole
6 purpose of this, which is to keep you from giving
7 information to your client. If your client is
8 present during this colloquy, it defeats the whole
9 purpose. Okay.
10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, I don't know what
11 you are up to, and the game here --
12 MR. HOFFMAN: It is not a game, Mr.
13 Wood.
14 MR. WOOD: It is not a game. I
15 think if you put a document in front of my
16 client, she is entitled to know what --
17 MR. HOFFMAN: This is what the
18 document is. It is a series of letters. Any
19 person can see what this is.
20 MR. WOOD: It is a series of letters
21 that is --
22 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all. I asked
23 her to look at it, asked her if she recognized
24 any of it, and then I asked her if she could
25 make any comment on whether she recognizes any

Page 62
1 similarities in the lettering of it.
2 That is all. It is a very simple
3 thing. I don't have to identify the source or
4 anything else.
5 MR. WOOD: Let me address this issue
6 with Mr. Rawls off the record, and we will come
7 back and see if we can solve the problem in a
8 different fashion.
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
10 (A recess was taken.)
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
12 video record at 10:33.
13 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am
14 going to show you a document that has been marked
15 Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. And I
16 would like you to look at the document. Please
17 look at it carefully.
18 What you -- this document, for the
19 record, contains eight letters that are side by
20 side vertically on the page. The letter D, what
21 looks like the letter S, what looks like letters
22 R and O, what looks like an N, what looks like
23 an O, what looks like an exclamation point, what
24 looks like a G, and what looks like a B.
25 I am going to ask you, Mrs. Ramsey,

Page 63
1 if you can identify any of these letters as being
2 your handwriting.
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Now I am going to ask you to look at
5 these letters and tell me -- in fact, I withdraw
6 the question.
7 I would like you to look at the
8 lower letter B, what looks like could be a letter
9 B at the bottom.
10 MR. WOOD: Left or right? There is
11 a mark with some sort of funny mark over it.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: That looks like a
13 little hat.
14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Those letters, for
15 the purposes of this discussion, look like they
16 might be the letter B. I am going to ask you
17 whether you see any similarity in the two
18 letters, any visual similarity, you as a lay
19 person, not as an expert, just looking at it
20 visually, do you see any similarities?
21 MR. WOOD: And if I might have my
22 objection for the record --
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, at this point
24 please.
25 MR. WOOD: -- is simply that I

Page 64
1 object to the form of the question. I do not
2 believe it is appropriate to ask a lay person a
3 question that goes to what you might believe to
4 be a question document issue from an expert,
5 particularly when you have not identified the
6 source of the writings before the witness, you
7 have not identified in answer whether these
8 documents have been in any way altered, blown up,
9 enlarged, positioned differently. So I object to
10 the form of the question for those reasons.
11 You may answer the question.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Also, for the purposes,
13 I would like to state that this answer would not
14 be used for any evidentiary purpose, realizing
15 that there is no proper foundation as to source,
16 as to how these letters came to be what they
17 are. But I will just say one thing for the
18 record, that lay people are, under Article 9 of
19 the Federal Rules of Evidence, are occasionally
20 allowed to identify handwriting as lay people.
21 Frequently, letters are shown to lay
22 people, and they are allowed to authenticate
23 handwriting to that degree, if they have
24 familiarity, which is one of the reasons why
25 I asked you if you were familiar with any of

Page 65
1 the letters.
2 MR. WOOD: And I did not object when
3 you asked her whether she believed that to be her
4 handwriting.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all I am
6 asking.
7 MR. WOOD: But now you are asking
8 her whether there is similarity from a lay
9 perspective, and I will accept your stipulation
10 that you will not use that answer for any
11 evidentiary purpose.
12 And with that stipulation, you may
13 answer the question.
14 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I would like you
15 to look at the letter B and tell me if those Bs
16 look at all similar to you.
17 A. Well, they are both lower case Bs.
18 Q. Is there anything about the Bs that
19 to you looks similar beside the fact they are
20 lower case? The way they are drawn?
21 A. No, not particularly.
22 Q. I am going to ask you to look above
23 the letter that we identified as being B at what
24 looks like it could be a G. I am going to ask
25 you to look at the G. I am going to ask you

Page 66
1 whether you see any similarities between the Gs
2 and what those similarities are.
3 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, they are both
6 lower case G. They are both more of the same
7 size than the Bs are.
8 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is there anything
9 -- what about the way in which what looks like
10 could be described as a tail with the G, is
11 there any similarity with respect to that?
12 A. It swings to the left.
13 Q. Do they look similar, the tails to
14 the G?
15 A. Somewhat. I mean, a G, you make a G
16 with the tail to the left. Is that what you
17 mean?
18 Q. Those look similar, like similar
19 tails?
20 MR. WOOD: You are talking about --
21 well, again, I think she answered your question.
22 THE WITNESS: One is squiggly, and
23 one is smoother. But, I mean, it depends on how
24 many things you want to --
25 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just looking for

Page 67
1 whatever points of similarity that you, as a lay
2 person --
3 A. I would say they are both similar in
4 size.
5 MR. WOOD: Or dissimilar, in fairness.
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Or dissimilar.
7 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) You can make
8 whatever visual observations you want about it.
9 I simply want your reaction.
10 A. The one on the right is more shaky,
11 it looks like.
12 Q. What about the one on the left?
13 A. It is not as shaky. And the one on
14 the right has a little swoop up on the tail, and
15 the one on the left does not.
16 The one on the left has a thicker
17 circle for the part of the G than the one on
18 the right.
19 Q. Now I am going to ask you to --
20 before I -- withdraw that question.
21 Do you have any other observations,
22 similarities or dissimilarities, that you would
23 like to express?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I am going to ask you to look to

Page 68
1 what looks like exclamation points, and I am
2 going to ask you if you see any points of
3 similarity or dissimilarity.
4 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulation.
6 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: One is thick. One is
8 thin. One has a bigger dot than the other.
9 That is fat. That is little.
10 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Anything about the
11 slope or angle or anything else that is similar
12 or dissimilar?
13 A. I don't know what "slope or angle"
14 means.
15 Q. The way in which it is going up and
16 down.
17 A. Well, that is how you make an
18 exclamation point is straight down with a dot
19 under it.
20 Q. Do they look similar or dissimilar
21 with respect to how vertical they are?
22 A. Well, the one on the left is
23 squigglier and leans at the top a little bit.
24 Q. Any other similarities or
25 dissimilarities, before I move to the next one?

Page 69
1 A. I don't think they look alike.
2 Q. The next object or letters look like
3 they might be Os, the letter O. Or they could
4 be a zero from a number. But in any case, a
5 zero or an O.
6 MR. WOOD: Or it could be even an
7 attempt to make a Q.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be.
9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) But you can
10 identify it any way you would like, Mrs. Ramsey.
11 And please point out any similarities or
12 dissimilarities that you see.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: And, Mr. Wood, the same
14 stipulation.
15 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation. Thank
16 you.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't think they look
18 a thing alike.
19 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) So you would say
20 they are just dissimilar. Would you point out
21 their dissimilarities?
22 A. The dissimilarities?
23 Q. Yes. The dissimilarities.
24 A. One is large. One is small. One is
25 really heavy and feathered, kind of, and one is

Page 70
1 smoother.
2 Q. Any other similarities or
3 dissimilarities before I move on that you would
4 like to make?
5 A. They both have an opening in the
6 middle.
7 Q. All right. The hole in the doughnut?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I would like you to look up to the
10 next letter. Now, that can be an N. That
11 could be a truncated R. It is hard to say. I
12 would like you to look at that and just tell me
13 what similarities or dissimilarities you see
14 between the two.
15 MR. WOOD: It could be an N, too.
16 THE WITNESS: It could be a pi.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Could be. For all we
18 know, it is a little horse or something that is
19 truncated, or poodle, actually.
20 THE WITNESS: A poodle?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: One of those show
22 poodles.
23 MR. WOOD: I am not seeing the
24 poodle here, Darnay.
25 THE WITNESS: This is a psych test.

Page 71
1 MR. HOFFMAN: Rorschach for attorneys.
2 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) If you could, look
3 at that, those two letters.
4 MR. HOFFMAN: With the same -- Lin,
5 what is it, the same stip?
6 MR. WOOD: Same stipulation.
7 THE WITNESS: One is shorter than the
8 other one. The one on the right is shorter than
9 the one on the left. The one on the left has
10 like a little triangle thing over the top of it.
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) I want to draw
12 your attention to the fact that they seem to
13 merge. There seems to be -- whatever it is, it
14 seems like one thing is running into another, or
15 there is something hanging off of it. It is an
16 awkward looking letter. It could be an R and an
17 O. It could be any other number of
18 configurations.
19 A. Which one are we looking at? Are
20 you looking at this one?
21 Q. Oh, no. I am sorry. Are we still
22 at the poodle? I thought we were going to
23 move on after the poodle.
24 MR. WOOD: I thought we were still
25 at the poodle.

Page 72
1 THE WITNESS: I never saw a poodle,
2 for the record.
3 MR. WOOD: Neither did I. That is
4 why I am staying there.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Not going to go there;
6 right?
7 THE WITNESS: So you are at the
8 third one down now?
9 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Before I finish
10 that, I want to give you the opportunity, do you
11 have any other observation between similarity or
12 dissimilarity between the --
13 A. The little pi one?
14 Q. Yeah, the little pi.
15 A. I mean pi, like a Greek letter pi,
16 pi R squared.
17 Q. Now we will move to the next
18 configuration, whatever that is. I see it as an
19 R and an O, but that is just the way I look at
20 it. I would like you to tell me what you see
21 and similarities and dissimilarities between the
22 letter.
23 MR. WOOD: Same stip?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Same stip.
25 THE WITNESS: I just -- that doesn't

Page 73
1 look like anything in the alphabet that I have
2 ever seen. I mean, it doesn't look like a
3 letter to me.
4 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Fair enough.
5 Any specific dissimilarities besides it
6 just doesn't look like a letter between the two
7 non --
8 A. Well, the one on the right seems to
9 be heavier and has a little piece sticking out
10 the left side. And the one on the left has a
11 little bird over the top of it or something mark.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. It looks like they were made with
14 different weights of pencil or something.
15 Q. If you have no further observations,
16 we will move to the next letter, what looks like
17 it could be an S.
18 A. Or it looks like it could be a 5.
19 Q. It could be a 5, too. Any
20 similarities or dissimilarities between the two?
21 A. The one on the left is larger than
22 the one on the right. The one on the right
23 looks more like an S than the one on the left.
24 The one on the left is more circular, kind of,
25 on the bottom. The one on the right is -- the

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