my advice to the Marcionite church and NXIVM cult documentary the Vow and Seduced

Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:18 am


growing up i read the Bible and i read passages like this

1 Samuel 15

1 Samuel 15 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord Rejects Saul as King

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves[b] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the Lord all that night.

12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, “Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal.”

13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, “The Lord bless you! I have carried out the Lord’s instructions.”

14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”

15 Saul answered, “The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the Lord your God, but we totally destroyed the rest.”

16 “Enough!” Samuel said to Saul. “Let me tell you what the Lord said to me last night.”

“Tell me,” Saul replied.

17 Samuel said, “Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The Lord anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ 19 Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”

20 “But I did obey the Lord,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the Lord your God at Gilgal.”

22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23
For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the Lord’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord.”

26 But Samuel said to him, “I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you as king over Israel!”

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

30 Saul replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord your God.” 31 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the Lord.

32 Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.”

Agag came to him in chains.[c] And he thought, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”

33 But Samuel said,

“As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women.”

And Samuel put Agag to death before the Lord at Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel left for Ramah, but Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. 35 Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.

for further reading on this topic





I eventually learned of Marcion, the second century "heretic" who taught that the God of Jesus is not the God of the Jews,

I. The Creator God and the Supreme God

For an evil tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bring forth evil fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. Luke 6:43,44a

I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil...
Isaiah 45:6,7

I create evil - This god is the author of evil - there must be another God, after the analogy of the good tree producing its good fruit. In Christ is found a different disposition, one of a simple and pure benevolence - which differs from the Creator.
In Christ a new God is revealed.

The Creator God is judicial, harsh, and mighty in war.
The Supreme God is gentle and simply good and excellent.

The title "God" is a vague one, and applied to other Beings as well; as it is written, " He standeth in the congregation of the mighty"; "He judgeth among the gods" (Psalm 82:1,6), "Ye are gods". Thus as the attribute of supremacy would be inappropriate to these, although they be called gods, so it is to the Creator.

Jesus Christ and none else revealed a new God, who, in the Old world and in the Old time and under the Old God was unknown and unheard of ; Whom is accounted by no one through long centuries back, and ancient in men's very ignorance of Him - even in ancient names He was unknown and concealed. He had remained unknown by any works from the beginning. Even the Creator was unaware of the Supreme God being above himself, Who, although He did not manifest Himself from the beginning and by means of the creation, has yet revealed Himself in Christ Jesus.

To be sure, this world is a grand work, worthy of a god. Yet the Supreme God has a creation of His own, and His own world, and His own sky. One work is sufficient for our God: He has delivered man by His supreme and most excellent goodness, which is preferable to the creation of all the locusts. A primary and perfect goodness is shed voluntarily and freely upon strangers without any obligation of friendship, on the principle that we are bidden to love our enemies, who as such on that very account are strangers to us.

The Supreme God is susceptible to no feeling of rivalry, or anger, or damage, or injury . He inflicts no punishment and takes no offence, and is not feared, as a good being ought not to be an object of fear, as a judicial being, in whom resides the grounds for fear - anger, severity, judgements, vengeance, and condemnation.

II. The Inconsistencies of the Creator God

The Creator God is inconsistent, in respect of persons, sometimes disapproving where approbation is deserved; or else lacking in foresight, bestowing approbation on men who ought rather be reprobated, as if he either censured his own past judgements, or could not forecast his future ones.

With fickleness and improvidence he repented, or on some recollection of some wrong-doing, because the Creator actually says "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king" (1 Samuel 15:11), his repentance in the sense of an acknowledgement of some evil work or error. This is also the case in the matter of the Ninevites, when the Book of Jonah (3:10) states,
"And God repented of the evil that he had said he would do unto them; and he did not."

The Creator called out to Adam, "Where art thou?" as if ignorant of where Adam was; and when Adam alleged that the shame of his nakedness was the reason for hiding himself, the Creator inquired whether he had eaten of the tree, as if he were in doubt (Genesis 3:9-11).

In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, he says "I will go down now, to see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it which is come to me; and if not, I will know"; another instance of his uncertainty in ignorance.

The Creator God was even mean enough in his very fierceness, when, in his wrath against the people for their consecration of the golden calf, he makes this request to Moses: "Let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make thee a great nation" (Exodus 32:10). Moses is better than his God, as the deprecator and indeed, the averter of his anger, "For Thou shalt not do this; or else destroy me along with them" (Exodus 32:32).

III. The Two Christs

The Christ who in the days of Tiberius was, by a previously unknown God, revealed for the salvation of all nations, is a different being from him who was ordained by the Creator God for the restoration of the Jewish state, and who is yet to come.

The Creator's Christ is to be a warrior, a bearer of arms, and mighty in war.
The Christ of the Good God, who has come, is a far different being from the Creator's Christ.

Isaiah's description of Christ in no point suits the Christ of the Good God. Isaiah's Christ is to be called Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14); then, he takes the riches of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria against the king of Assyria (Isaiah 8:4). But yet, He who is come was neither born under such a name, nor ever engaged in such a war-like enterprise.

A Christ had come who had never been foreannounced, but the Christ predicted had not yet appeared. The Jews were themselves quite certain that it was some other who came; so they not only rejected Him as a stranger, but slew Him as an enemy, though they would have acknowledged Him, and with all religious devotion followed Him, if He had been one of them.

The difference between the two Christs, is that the Jewish Christ was ordained by the Creator for the restoration of the people alone from its dispersion,
while our Christ was appointed by the supremely Good God for the liberation of the whole human race.
Who among the nations can turn to the Creator, when those whom the prophets name are proselytes of individually different and private conditions?

It is the Christ of the Other, Supreme God Who was driven to the cross by the hostile powers and authorities of the Creator. The suffering of the cross was not predicted of the Creator's Christ; moreover, it should not be believed that the Creator would expose his son to that kind of death on which he himself had pronounced a curse. "Cursed" says he, "is everyone who hangeth on a tree" (Deuteronomy 21:3, Galatians 3:13).

http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/antithes.htm

i think the Very First Bible should also have Marcion antitheses which i downloaded but did not see


As someone who has actually unfortunately read the bible, I think that Marcion's idea of ditching the nasty genocidal jewish god is a smart idea.


I no longer believe in God, but I thought if Christians were smart, they'd ditch the Old Testament and edit the New Testament, basically exactly what Marcion did in the second century,


i do live in the real world, right now it's snowing. before COVID, i like to shop at COSTCO and eat their samples, and i have a dentist appointment coming up soon.

in the real world there are cults, and there are christian fundamentalists.


I've not commented on it but i did watch documentary HBO The Vow and Lifetime Seduced by India Oxenberg.

I've learned that someone is trying to re-establish the Marcionite church.

https://www.marcionitechurch.org/

in the real world anyone starting a new religion, even a modification of an existing religion like Christianity, will automatically be labeled a cult by Christian anti-cult fundamentalists and a heresy.

and because of cults like NXIVM to heaven's gate to jim jones, to scientology, the label cult can scare away potential converts.

unfortunately, it seems the Marcionite church one is against what they call COVID hoax and against COVID vaccination, which has no clear relevance to Marcion's message of love and hope.

I don't see the relevance of COVID to religion.

historically Marcionism is tied with claims of anti-semitism and anti-Judaism. christian anti-culters and even possibly Jews may call this church "anti-semitic" and link it with Nazism and far right

if this church of Marcion wants middle class respectability, my suggestion is 1- remove all reference to COVID "hoax", which I don't see as a hoax, and i consider it irrelevant to relgion. but also 2- anything that might smack of anti-Semitism, even though i actually have some sympathies.

his website calls Judaism and Talmud an alien religion. I actually grew up in a suburb north of Chicago, with a large orthodox Jewish community and i actually agree Judaism is indeed an alien religion with an alien deity and alien scriptures

but i wouldn't say it.

in their videos they show rabbi beating a chicken and yeah i think that's funny and strange, but you might attract anti-semites and neo nazi's which would ruin middle class acceptance and be labeled a hate group and a anti-semitic cult

my suggestion is simply to remove such statements, and instead state that even Jewish converts are welcome to the God of Jesus.

these are negatives, don't mention COVID, don't say anything that can be construed as anti-Semitic. and don't do cult like things.

the positives is simply,

we possess the true bible, the true scripture, our church will give you the true way to God, our God is the god of love, you will have a deeper more fulfilling relationship with God and Jesus Christ with our church and our teachings than with any other church.

i would post teachings of Marcion and passages of the very first bible and show how you can get a deeply meaningful connection with Jesus

i do think starting a new religion in this day and age is a very difficult task, esp with all the negative press on cults. also there is a lot of religious skepticism.


the christian churches that have the largest members, a vibrant youth group teens include churches ranging from evangelicals to mormons baptists and campus crusade for christ

if you want to attract these people, obviously these people are conservative, opposed to abortion, pro-life, traditional marriage, and not accepting LGBT, republican etc.

i'd recommend you state while you don't accept the Old Testament on theological grounds, you don't accept anti-semitism and neo-nazism and jewish converts are welcome

this is jesus camp




the one big advantage of marcionism is that little kids reading the marcionite bible wont be reading the old testament, nor crazy b. s like revelation.


so that's one less reason to apostasy. a big reason to be sure. another for me is the conflict between darwin's theory of evolution vs genesis, which christians took literally. in marcion there's no old testament.


i think there are all kinds of questions about marcion as they interact with mainstream christians.

marcion gospel took out the nativity scene in luke. the idea of being born again and jesus is the only way, comes from gospel of john which is not in marcion's scripture.

in marcion's system, there are 2 gods, the god of jesus and the god of the jews. the god of the jews created the world. this goes against what almost everyone even atheists believe, that god is the creator of the universe who sent his son jesus to die on the cross.

in marcion, the god of jesus did NOT create the universe.

in the real world of course people will use prayer to solve their own personal problems from health problems to money financial problems to relationship problems.

i don't believe prayer works.

marcionites will meet real world christian apologists who will call their views heresy and error and the church a cult.

if the marcionite church follows my suggestions and aims towards widespread acceptance and popularity and middle class adoption, obviously i kinda hope it replaces mainstream christianity.





kids growing up in this church with the marcionite bible will not read of a genocidal god who orders his chosen ones to commit genocidal atrocities, nor all the weird creepy stuff.

christianity without the old testament. something i thought of when i started reading the bible. i'm kinda a nonbeliever in god now, and i don't think prayer works.

despite what they say though i plan to obtain for myself and my mother the COVID vaccine when it becomes available. right now there are extremely long lines and shortages. i've struggles with pneumonia and the flu in the past so it's a no brainer for me.

i do think the marcionite church should go to length to state while they reject the old testament, they are not anti-semitic, and jews are welcome to convert, which means renouncing judaism and the jewish god but neonazism and white supremacy and kkk are not accepted nor tolerated.

so in summary i actually hope the marcionite church succeeds and replaces Christianity, probably a tall order and unreachable fantasy. obviously the actual details are involved, i don't know who these people are or what their actual intentions are. they could be well intent or they could be cult leaders, certainly many cults are involved in money and sex, such as the NXIVM cult.

i have read Bart Ehrman and seen Dale Martin's lectures, and i know that 1- it is historically accurate to say that the Marcionite bible is the very first known christian bible. marcion was the first known christian to announce his bible, which only had 1 gospel and 10 letters of paul and no old testament.

but the other history the marcionite church claims doesn't accord with what they say, marcion was just one of many sects including the ebionites, who was the polar opposite of marcion. they accepted the old testament, some version of the gospel of matthew, but no letters of paul and required all observance of judaism.

the mainstream scholarly consensus is mark was written first, luke and matthew used mark and Q to write their gospels. marcion then took luke's gospel, removed all references to the old testament, and the letters of paul. i accept this scholarly view.

if they want to succeed and be as widely successful as say Mormonism jehovah witness seven day adventists, they need to aim for middle class respectability which means no "COVID HOAX" which is not relevant to religion. and emphasize a happy positive relationship with jesus and god.

apparently they will establish the first church sometime in 2021 or so, somewhere in the Dominican republic, of all places, as opposed to say California or the bible belt like Alabama.

the marcionite christian bible is family friendly but wow all the stories from old testament from adam and even to david and goliath gone.

if i were the marcionite church i'd emphasize my bible is family friendly and that the old testament has stuff you don't want kids to read.

marcion did NOT include revelation so a lot of the doomsday end of the world, jesus is second coming is gone