The Nancy Krebs Interview - Part Two

PAGE 51 THROUGH 100

PRESENT.
A. Det. Tom Trujillo
B. Det. Chuck Heidel
C. Lee Hill
D. Nancy Krebs
E. Alex Hunter

P96-21871

D. …um…no I I'd say that with my Grandpa Christof there was a lot more of the family connection with the Whites

A. Okay

D. I mean that...oh…the the, the family connection was in the beginning between my Grandpa Christof, Gordon Ghristof

A. Uh-huh

B. Uh-huh

D. And Fleet White who went to school with each other

A. Okay

B. Okay

A. So Gordon and Fleet were buddies from school

D. Right

A. Okay and they were the ones together that initially started the sexual assaults on you….does that make sense

D. ...Right

A. Okay um was it always the two or did your grandfather start it, I mean who was the very first person to sexually assault you, does that make sense

D. Yeah I think the very first person to sexually assault me was Mackie Boykin

A. Okay the this guy that got arrested in 1980

D. Right

A. Was the very first person that sexually assaulted you

D. That I can remember

A. Okay…..and along the time line

D. Uh but at this, around that same time things were going on with Fleet White and my grandpa, I mean I don’t know, this is really hard for me to say who’s first, who’s second

P96-21871

A. Okay

D. I mean it’s like

A. It’s a long time ago

D. Yeah

A. And you were very young…..understand that

B. Could could, since we’re on the subject, could we talk about uh Mr. Mackie here for a second, he was convicted of sexual assault on you

D. Yes

B. Back in, back when 19

(Knock on door)

B. Back in 19, what year was it

D. Um ‘80

B. 1980, okay did that actually go to trial, was there a plea bargain involved (inaudible)

D. There was a plea bargain

B. Okay and which police department investigated that

D. Uh Inyo County

B. Inyo County

D. Uh-huh

B. Can you spell that for me

D. I Y, I N Y O

B. Y O, okay and you were the victim

C. Sheriff’s sheriff’s or police, I’m sorry

B. SO investigated (inaudible)

P96-21871

D. Uh it’s the sheriff’s department

B. Okay

D. And then dist the District Attorney’s office

B. Okay…..did you get copies of the report by chance

C. No I didn’t

B. Okay, so they investigated the case and it was plea bargained out but you were the victim on that

D. Right

B. Were there any other victims in that case

D. Um

B. Including family members

D. No

B. Your sister, nobody else came up in that

D. Yeah my sister did and

B. She came up as a victim

D. Yeah

B. (inaudible)

D. And…..after some time she wanted she didn’t want to talk about any abuse and at the very, towards the very end it was my understanding that she uh told…..the District Attorney’s office that she had witnessed some things happening to me and that some, I don’t know I’m pretty sure that she said that something had happened to her

B. But he was convicted for that crime

D. Right

B. Okay with you as the victim


P96-21871

D. Right

B. Do you know his whereabouts now

D. Yeah he’s dead

B. He’s dead, okay, died in prison or

D. No he he died in November of ‘96

B. And did you ever testify in any uh any of the preliminary hearings

D. Yes

B. Motion hearings or any of that stuff

D. Yes

B. Okay

A. You said he died in November of ’96, where was he at when he died

D. He was um at my mom and stepdad’s place in Trona

A. Okay so now….uh did he go to prison in 1980

D. He went to county jail

A. Okay

D. For 10 months

A. Okay, so within a year he was back out on the street

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay, did he sexually assault you after he got out of jail

D. Yes

A. Okay…..and this is some sort of a plea agreement that he went to jail for

D. Uh-huh he pleaded no contest

P96-21871

A. Okay……okay………again let’s start with 90 and start goin’ back um and actually let me jump if we could to the last time um……Fleet White Jr. sexually assaulted you….that was in like ’76, ’78 something like that, is that right um…do you remember specifically when that last time was or more do you remember the uh event of that um…..uh what occurred during that last time I mean

D. I I

A. Looks looks like you had a you could tell me about Senior the very last time, could you tell me about Junior the very last time….he sexually assaulted you

D. Um…ya but can I take a break before I do that please

A. Sure

B. Sure

A. You can take a break

D. Okay

A. It’s about 4

D. Sounds good

A. 4:20 in the afternoon, we’ll go ahead and stop the tape okay

D. (inaudible)

C. You you started to explain something

D. No I it’s just pretty gruesome

C. Oh

A. Okay

C. Okay

D. And I just

C. Wanted to build up speed

D. Yeah

P96-21871

C. Okay

A. That’s fine we can do that

B. You can go outin the lobby and take a

D. Can I

B. Stretch your legs

A. Sure you want to stretch your legs, walk you out front um

(Door opening.)

A. Like I said you know (inaudible) Lee

C. Please that’d be great uh…and I have a runner bringing over the folder

A. Okay

C. And I may even be able to get them to retrieve the uh the video camera

A. Okay

C. So I can

A. We actually we can take the tape and make

C. The only problem is that there….there’s some portions of that tape that are (inaudible)

(Conversation taking place out of the interview room)

A. That’s fine

C. (inaudible) nothing interesting

A. That’s fine, why don’t you walk with her, when you’re ready we’ll all come back in in about 5 minutes

C. (inaudible)

A. Sure

C. (inaudible)

P96-21871

A. Sure, first of all I think she did a very good job

C. Okay

A. Think she’s doin’ a very good job

(Door closing.)

A. Um

C. She she she’s struggling a little bit, she has

A. Okay

C. A gosh, I mean and it’s and it’s…..it’s wild but it’s not you know

A. Uh-huh

C. It hold up I think but….

A. She she has a lot of information in her and that’s why I want to take it nice and slow

C. Right

A. And break it down into little pieces

C. I appreciate where it’s going

A. Nope that’s fine

C. Okay okay

A. (inaudible) we’ll take it to where it goes

C. (inaudible) okay

A. Okay

C. Um like someone rushing to the last page of the history of the world

(Door opening, participants walking out, door closing.)

(End side 2, tape 1.)


P96-21871

C. You’re doing very well, you know what Nancy, as thorough and tedious as this is you won’t have to repeat this…maybe one or two more times…Over a period…you know a substantial period I’m really proud of you, help me help you ok

D. Well I mean (inaudible) even think about that and I (inaudible) and I just wanted to be able to tell them about those phone conversations now while they were on it… (inaudible)

C. It..it must be (inaudible) oops I’m sorry

D. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible I’m tempted to ask her to fax it here

D. Ya

C. Should I try and call her and see if she could fax it (inaudible)

D. Yea

B. Lee did you get your coffee

C. No..no I didn’t (inaudible)

B. Ok, did you get cream in it last time

C. I did..I did, I thank you so much

A. You can close that door while they are getting you coffee

C. Well I’ve...I’ve hidden uh the most recent Fleet White photograph it’s lost in my office some where

A. Ok

C. That’s where it’s at so, sorry about that..ummm the…the video tape will be brought…will be brought to me (inaudible) (noise)

A. Ok


P96-21871

C. Or (inaudible) I’m not sure

A. Here

C. Yes sir

A. Ok, let me tell the front desk that it’s coming in and they….(inaudible)

C. I think they are aware….did I make it clear to them (inaudible)

A. Let just make sure

C. Ok, thank you

A. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible) (both talking) thanks…thanks

A. Here you go

C. Thank you

B. So were all the uh…these interviews with your therapists were they recorded (inaudible)

D. No

B. Just did notes

D. Uh-huh

C. And as I mentioned she’s available to call her

B. Right

A. They’re gonna make sure that comes, (inaudible) (talking) he’s having the video tape run over..

B. Ok


P96-21871

A. As soon as that comes over we can umm it’s gonna come to Ann’s desk, and it’s gonna stay on Ann’s desk

B. Ok

A. Ok

C. I can umm…I can umm we could call the therapist and she could fax

A. That’s fine…we’ll…we’ll deal with it in a little bit, umm let me back up just a little bit…where we…where did we leave off here umm

B. Oh we were...we were actually talking about Mr. Mackey here…..

A. Ok

D. And now you’re talking about Fleet White (inaudible) where was the last time that

A. Okay, we were getting ready to start there

D. I can remember something happened (D & B talking)

A. Ok, is there anything you want to talk about before we talk about that incident

D. I would like to…to have that those notes from Fleet White

A. Ok

D. Because I could be more precise on a conversation if I see it…the date it was sent from Aspen

A. Ok, and those the actual notes are where

C. In my office, I could run over there and get them

A. Ok, you want to do that

C. (inaudible) (C & B talking)

D. No


P96-21871

C. It’ll be helpful

D. Uh-huh

C. You want to come with me or do you want to wait here

D. No, I’m fine

C. Ok

A. Do you want us to keep going

D. No, I’d rather wait

A. Ok, we could do that

D. It’s important

B. Ok

A. We can do that

C. I’ll be right back

A. Alright

C. (inaudible) Sussex 1 Building

B. (inaudible) oh, oh (inaudible) (talking from all)

D. (inaudible)

A. No that’s fine we’ll get it started here, when we get going…..I’ll just sit in here and chat with her

B. Ok

A. For a little bit so, that’s fine we can wait until uh...Lee gets back. We’ll close the door though cause there’s a lot of….(inaudible) that’s why everybody wanders back and forth so…Pick up a lot external noise that we don’t need to, so you think those notes


P96-21871

Will help you kind of refresh exactly what was said during that conversation with uh..

D. Well (inaudible) (D & B talking)

A. (inaudible)

D. I had more than one with him

A. Ok

D. And I had one with Nyla

A. His wife

D. Right

A. Did any of these conversations involve money or anything

D. Yea

A. Umm

D. That’s why I want the notes

A. Ok, and that’s...that’s I’m hearing that third...third hand umm the District Attorney’s had some information about that or something umm but he didn’t really what’s that about, I mean what are we talking about before you get your notes or we’ll kind of just fill it if you wouldn’t mind.

D. I want to wait

A. Ok, you want to wait until you get the notes (B&D talking)

D. And there is a reason I want to wait

A. Ok

D. Because of…what I’ve already mention about there being a 75 and then a 87 written over the 75


P96-21871

A. OK, and that’s I wasn’t real clear, do that have to do with his name or something or is that

D. No, that was the amount of money that was offer to me

A. Ok, so Fleet White…so I guess that’s what I’m not understanding. So Fleet White so the money he talked about didn’t have anything to do with his age, it had to do with Fleet White Sr. offering some money

D. Right

A. Ok, for

D. If I would keep my mouth shut about what I know

A. Ok, now is this specific to what you know about

D. (B&D talking) And I told him I didn’t want any of his money but

A. Ok, now does this have to do with keeping you mouth shut uh...about Fleet White Sr. and Fleet White Jr. or does this have to do with keeping your mouth shut on the homicide that I’m currently investigating, the Ramsey homicide

D. No, it has to do with I...it wasn’t anything in general. I think it was more about everything that I know

A. Ok, now do you also...and I know I’m kind of jumping ahead just a little bit and umm and umm when Lee gets back in we’ll kind of break this down specifically. Do you have information on the Ramsey homicide

D. Yes I do

A. Ok, then we’ll get back to that then, umm the homicide itself or Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey? John and Patsy Ramsey

D. The homicide itself


P96-21871

A. Ok, umm have you ever met John and Patsy Ramsey

D. I want to wait to answer that question

A. Ok, ok I’m gonna make notes and make sure that I don’t forget to any any

D. (inaudible)

A. Ok

D. I won’t leave here without

A. Fair enough

D. That being discussed because I think it’s very important

A. Ok

D. To a lot of people

A. Ok…..(inaudible) umm so Alice is your grandmother

D. Uh-huh

A. Umm, Christoff is that right

D. And it’s...and it’s C. .H…R…I…S…T..

A. One more time C..H

D. R…I…S…T…O…F…F

A. Ok, that’s grandfather

D. Uh-huh

A. And he died 02-06- of 66

D. Uh-huh


P96-21871

A. And Sprague’s is the new grandfather

D. Uh-huh

A. Ok, and he’s still alive along with your grandmother

D. No

A. Where does she live

D. My grandmother lives with me

A. Ok where

D. I think he died in 92, I’m not sure

A. Ok...ok and I have

D. Oh you know what umm something else that I would really like for you to see is on that tape and it was umm sent by Fleet White to my grandmother

A. Fleet White Sr. or Jr.

D. Fleet White Sr

A. Ok

D. To my grandma and it was sent to Alice Christoff

A. Ok

D. And it I believe it was sent in January but I have the actual envelope and everything. And it was my grandfather’s umm death notice

A. Ok and that would be

D. My grandpa Christoff

A. Death notes in 66


P96-21871

D. Yea

A. Ok…ok and that’s also on that video but you have a real copy of that some place

D. Yes

A. Ok, umm now are we talking about the Christoff, Alyce Christoff and grandfather Christoff is that your moms mom...mom and dad

D. Right

A. Ok umm are your dads mom and dad involved in any of this at all

D. Mm-huh

A. Does that make sense

D. Yea

A. Cause they’re both sets of parents

D. Right

A. Are involved, ok lets do it this way. So that’s mom K..R..E..B..S, your dad

D. Is Don (low voice)

A. Ok, your moms mom is Alyce

D. Mm-huh, and that’s umm A..L..Y..C..E

A. And first one was Christoff, what’s your dad…your grandfather’s first name

D. Gordon

A. Ok, and Sprague’s first name

D. Albert

A. That’s P..R..A..G..G..S


P96-21871

D. S..P..R..A..G..U..E…, I have some..I’ve note that (inaudible)

A. Ok, he died in uh 92

D. Mm-huh

A. Any other grandfathers, just two husbands Alyce just had two

D. Yes

A. Ok, your dads...your dads moms name

D. Lois

A. L..O..I..S

D. Uh-huh

A.. And her last name

D. Krebs and my grandpa’s name is Harold

A. Harold

D. Uh-huh

A. And they were both also involved in sexually assaulting you

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, and it’s Boykin…B. Y..K..I..N

D. Uh-huh

A. Is your moms name right

D. Right

A. Is she married now


P96-21871

D. No, she’s in the process of getting a divorce

A. Ok, and what’s her husbands name now

D. Thomas

A. Thomas Boykin

D. Uh-huh

A. So they were divorced in 2000

D. They’re in the process (talking D&B) (inaudible)

A. In the process ok and your...your mom and dad divorced in 1968 is that right

D. Well, I was trying to think about that. I know that they were separated and then they got back together when I was around 10

A. Ok, so separated in 68

D. Yea, and I think that my mom didn’t actually get a divorce from my dad until...we moved to Trona

A. Trona California

D. Yea

A. Ok

D. And he hadn’t been living with us for quite awhile. And that’s when I think she actually got her divorce

A. In about what year would that be

D. Mmm, it was probably 77, 76 somewhere in there

A. Ok, umm as we’re kind of sitting here umm we talked about Fleet White Jr last time was umm 76 through 78 umm again I think it’s real important to try and figure out at least for me…umm try to figure out how that corresponds to when you were in school.


P96-21871

Umm only because that kind of gives us somemore…you know if you were...whatever age you were in school you know if we can equate that to a specific time...from there we can figure out you know when it occurred umm but it kind of gives us a time line (inaudible)

D. It would have been 8th or 9th grade

A. Ok, again we can

D. The end of the 8th grade, it had...had it been after March of 1978

A. Why does that date stick out

D. Because that’s when we moved to Trona

A. Ok, March of 76

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, umm so it’s after March of 76 and before your were in the 8th grade in 76 is that right then

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, and any other specific dates that kind of stand out of your mind. As far maybe the last time that it occurred. Again I’m just trying to put together a time line

D. No I don’t…I mean it has been so many different things that it’s hard to remember dates

A. Ok

D. I have a really hard time remember dates or when

A. Mm-huh, and that’s maybe events in your life might be a better calender for you...Umm now as we look back maybe umm start of high school that sort of thing umm I mean those...those could be our calender as they were. Umm to kind of help break down those things that occurred, we could do that...so again kind of think about umm this happened before the end of high school...before the start of high school umm during high school years during junior high school years umm during the grade school


P96-21871

Years and again kind of…that would at least break us up into little bit areas…different areas umm so we can kind of keep track at least for me to keep track of when…when different things occurred ok. So the notes that you got from umm umm Fleet Sr.

D. Uh-huh

A. Umm Lee has copies of those, and those kind of brings us around and give us an idea of what we’re talking about

D. And why I was concerned for my safety and

A. Ok..ok

D. And I think that’s really important for you to see

A. Right

B. For her…so we’ve had...umm…so umm Nancy what we have is mental health records authorizations basically it’s a release that we’re gonna need to have you sign and I know you’re…offered to give those to us at this time (low voice) we can wait until Lee gets back for this…

A. Umm, again who...who’s was your therapist down in a California

D. Yea

A. And who was that

D. Her name is Mary

A. Mary’s last name

D. Bienkowski

A. Oh yea sure

B. Common spelling

D. B..I..E..N..


P96-21871

A. B..I..E..N

D. K..O

A. K..O

D. W

A. W

D. S..K..I..

A. S..K..I…umm does she.where’s her office at

D. In XXXX but do you need her address

A. No, but you got a phone number for her

D. Yea

A. Cool

D. XXXX

A. Ok, and that’s her office phone number

D. Yeah

A. Umm, do you have any other ways that you can get a hold of her

D. I don’t but Lee does

A. Ok, uh

B. So who is this...excuse me just a second...so this is XXXX, that’s where the faxes came from

D. Umm, it was an old partner of Mary’s

B. Oh so it’s from her the fax machine


P96-21871

A. Ok, she had PHD or MD

D. Neither

A. Ok

D. She’s MFCC

A. MFCC

D. Uh-huh, marriage counselor and child counselor

A. FCC….is she associated with umm like the department of Social Services or is she in private practice

D. She’s in private practice

A. Ok

D. I originally met her through umm victim witness in San Luis Obispo County

A. Ok umm

D. And she worked for the rape crisis center

A. Forward for just a second, so you met through victim witness

D. Mm-huh

A. And how did that come about, were you

D. Because of several assaults that happened in umm San Luis Obispo County

A. Ok, against you

D. Mm-huh and because umm of the earlier umm of the earlier rapes with Mackey Boykin

A Mm-huh



P96-21871

D. I was entitled to have counseling

A. Because of those assaults

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, umm so you met Mary through victim Witness, did you say she was also a

D. Somebody in (B&D talking)

A. Rape Crisis or something

D. Somebody in victim witness introduced me to Mary who had worked for rape crisis center

A. Ok so Mary worked through...Mary worked for rape crisis at the time

D. Mm-huh

A. That’s when you first met

D. Mm-huh

B. This other sexual assault you were talking about, were they stranger sex assaults or were those

D. No they were

B. Family members

D. Uh-huh

B. It’s the stuff we’ve been talking about or

D. Right

B. Or is it something separate

D. No


P96-21871

A. (inaudible)

D. And I also have a brother

A. Ok, and what’s your brother’s name

D. XXXX

A. XXXX

D. Uh-huh

A. What’s XXXX last name

D. XXXX

A. Where’s XXXX at right now

D. Well he lives in XXXX Arizona

A. Ok

D. I don’t know where his at right now cause he travels around

A. Work related or just

D. No work related he goes to Korea and

A. Ok

D. Different places

A. What does he do

D. He works for uh...a corporation called XXXX

A. What…what does he

D He does something with military tanks and installing computers of something



P96-21871

A. Ok

D. I don’t understand (low voice) (inaudible)

A. Umm, does XXXX have any idea what’s been going on. Does he know about all of this

D. Umm, well my brother certainly knows about things that are happening in Trona

A. Ok

D. Umm, but he didn’t...when his wife was asking he’ll just tell her he didn’t want to talk about it

A. Ok, we...ok, you are 32

D. 7

A. 37, and XXXX is how old

D. 35

A. And how old is XXXX

D. 33

A. Ok...ok to keep everybody straight…umm…you talked to your therapist about these assaults. Is there anybody umm the old little lady that you talked to…or that you called when Fleet Sr. you called have you talked to her about the assaults

D. Yea, she knows

A. Ok, she knows about them

D. Uh-huh

A. And her name once again

D. XXXX

A. One more time


P96-21871

D. XXXX

A. Ok, and you’ve got her phone number umm by how old is XXXX

D. 86

A. Ok, how’s her health

D. Well when I last saw her she was doing very well

A. Healthy

D Mm-huh

A. Good, umm anybody else that you talked to or told about the uh…the assaults other than the therapist and XXXX

D. What assaults...I mean assaults in general or

A. No, the sexual assaults umm I guess what I’m looking at is other than mom and dad and your sister because they all know about it. And then you talk to any other friends have you told anybody...any of your friends umm told anybody else other than DA’s office (inaudible) in California during that initial assault trail umm have you talked to anybody else umm to kind of get an idea what was going on the high school counselors umm I know you mentioned one high school teacher

D. Teacher, mm-huh

A. Umm, did you tell that teacher what was happening

D. Somewhat

A. Ok

D. Mm-huh

A. Umm, do you remember who that teacher was

D. Actually I do


P96-21871

A. And who was that

D. He’s name is XXXX

A. XXXX

D. Uh-huh, XXXX

A. What’s XXXX last name

D. XXXX

A. Ok, is XXXX a White or Black person

D. He’s White

A. Ok, umm still teaching

D. No

A. Retired

D. Right

A. Ok, about how old is XXXX

D. Probably in his late 60’s

A. Ok, umm his...is he still around some place

D. I’m sure he is but I don’t know where his at though

A. Ok, and that’s umm

D. Right now (B&D) talking (inaudible)

A. With the information that you’ve given me I wouldn’t try and find him (inaudible) but he was a high school teacher is that right

D. Right



P96-21871

A. Where at

D. Torona High School

A. Teacher or counselor

D. Teacher

A. Ok, umm anybody else that you talked to. Anybody that you uh...told about this

D. When you say this I get confused, cause I don’t know if you’re speaking about the White’s or you’re speaking about

A. Ok

D. XXXX or if you’re

A. Let’s...lets open it right up…umm (inaudible) let me break it down to specifics…who else have you told about umm being sexually assaulted by family members Fleet White the Whites...umm Mackey in general...who else have you talked to about that.

D. Like many people...or...I mean…over the course of...of the years

A. Ok

D. But I been very selective in what I have said…I haven’t said a whole lot

A. Ok, umm to go...to go pass the selectiveness

D. Uh-huh

A. Is there anybody that you kind of…say look this is what happened to me and actually sat down with them and went through you know kind of...kind of like what you’ve done with XXXX. Is there anybody else that you’ve talked to

D. Uh-huh

A. Ok

D A person by the name of XXXX (talking in the room)



P96-21871

A. XXXX

D. Yea

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. Ok, and is XXXX a White person

D. Yes

A. Ok, and about how old is XXXX

D. Umm, 85

A. Ok, is there a way to get a hold of XXXX

D. Yes

A. Ok, can you give a phone number or an address

D. Umm, XXXX

A. Ok, anybody else along those lines

D. He’s asking me people in my school, well I was in a...a group setting with XXXX

A. Ok

D. So there’s probably things shared in the group

A. And that’s fine XXXX

D (inaudible) (B&D talking)



P96-21871

A. Can cover that, umm but anybody else. Did you talk to anybody in that group on a private one to one basics. Or was it all just within a group, in a group setting

D. There’s umm one person

A. Ok, and who’s that

D. A XXXX

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. Ok, and is XXXX White or Black

D. White

A. And how about how old is XXXX

D. She’s 34

A. Ok, umm have you talked to XXXX recently

D. Umm, yes

A. Ok, umm is there a phone number I can talk to XXXX at.. if and again these just I got to get everybody down for me to go back and…and talk to some of these people umm and again that’s just

C. I have kind of (inaudible) (low voice) I feel duty bound

A. Mm-huh

C. To mention this umm first of all the signals not very strong in here but I had spoke with Mary…returning a message (inaudible) (low voice) Mary is her therapist



P96-21871

A. Right...right

C. Mary Bienkowski

A. Right

C. Umm, apparently the San Luis Obispo sheriff’s department has interview XXXX and through her interview with her they have learned that you are over her in Boulder discussing Fleet White’s involvement with John Ramsey. So that’s completely out there.

A. Ok

C. I mentioned that to you all, I don’t know if I should mention it to Mr. Hunter (inaudible) (low voice)

A. I’ll tell Alex then

C. Ok, and there is an immense supportive a considerable history that her therapist would (inaudible) to

A. Ok

C. And she’s an at an extream risk

A. Ok, and that’s umm you are listed as a missing person and uh

D. Yea I didn’t know that

C. (inaudible)

A. Ok, umm and we could deal with that when we’re done with all of this

C. Ok

A. But…umm so XXXX… but now is that…how does XXXX fit into all this…she was with...with some sort of a group with Mary is that correct

D. Right



P96-21871

A. Ok, and again is there some way to get a hold of XXXX if we need to umm we’ll just go through Mary or do you have her phone number umm cause what...what I’m gonna have to do is kind of what umm Mr. Hunter umm (inaudible) to decide if we go ahead and personally talk to all these people or call them on the phone and that that’s kind of up to you…umm somebody other than myself. Umm again I like to get as much information on everybody to try and figure out who’s who so that’s why basically we need to bring you back up to date umm I know she’s talked to Mary she told me that Mary’s (inaudible) (knock on the door) when he comes back we’ll bring him up to what we’re talking about

B. When did you start treatment with umm (inaudible) with umm Mary excuse me...when did you start treatment

D. I think it was in August in 90 but Mary would know better than I would

B. Ok

A. Ok, how about if we just put all records can we do that. That way it’s non specific day. If I put down August 90 that

B. (inaudible) (? Possibly talking) I’ll just make it 90

A. 2 (inaudible) ok

B. And you said we don’t have her address is that right

D. I can give you her address

B. Do you have it (inaudible)

A. Oh do you have it

D. Yea

B. Go ahead

A. Up on the top of your head

D. Yea


P96-21871

A. Go for it

D. XXXX

B. Ok

A. What city

D. XXXX

B. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. California

D. Right

B. (inaudible) do you know the zip by chance

D. I don’t know what her zip code is

B. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible)

B. You don’t happen to know the zip code of XXXX

C. I don’t have it on me sorry

B. Ok, umm Lee what we got before I forget is umm is…and I know she’s agreed to do this is to release her mental health records (talking) (inaudible)

A. Is a release for mental health records. What we’re asking for is she believe she started umm treatment in about August 1990 to the present time

B. (inaudible) (low voice)

A. We need you to print your name on the…not that I can’t read your signature (C&D talking)



P96-21871

C. Sorry

A. Ok, the only thing is uh-umm when you were gone we did a couple of things…kind of went through a family tree as it were…

C. Right (inaudible)

A. Kind of placed who everybody was (C&D talking) uh so that I could see that would make it easier. The other people we talked about are umm who all Nancy has talked to about in general, you know. The different sexual assaults instead of (inaudible) specifically each event (inaudible) talked about Mary

C. Mm-huh

A. Umm she’s talked to XXXX umm which again is a person that she talked to

C. (inaudible)

A. Most recently, umm XXXX who is an old high school teacher of hers

C. (inaudible)

A. And again as we go through (inaudible) umm any information we can you know get on these people

C. Sure

A. So if we need to go back and locate them

C. Yea

A. It would be umm helpful for us. XXXX is another of uh female that she’s talked to and then we got down to XXXX. And again if we have an address or a phone number for XXXX it would be helpful umm as far as us getting a hold of her

D. You know what I’m...and she’s already talked with the sheriff’s department in San Luis right

C. Apparently according to Mary, and Mary wouldn’t tell us anything (inaudible)



P96-21871

D. Uh-umm

B. You want us to explain what’s going on with that

B. Do you want Tom to explain again as far as the missing person, you said that you didn’t know what was going on with that. Do you want us to explain or

A. You seemed kind of confused about that (inaudible)

C. She’s been anticipating that…(inaudible)

D. (inaudible)

B. Go ahead

A. Umm and that’s you went down and visited somebody and again kind of getting this uh investigator…I...I’ve only talked to the investigator out there

C. Mm-huh

A. (inaudible) (bad sound in tape) in San Luis Obispo is that right

D. Mm-huh

A. Umm the investigator basically said that you were umm you were listed as a missing person umm went to visit somebody...They found your car that gots some suitcases and stuff in it umm and again investigator believes you know maybe they belong to grandmother your grandmother...and that’s a whole other

D. That’s not true

A. Old looking suitcases or something

D. That’s not true

A. Ok, are there suitcases…were there suitcases in your car

D. Mm-huh, there was a suitcase in my car

A. Is it an older looking suitcase



P96-21871

D. Yes

A. Ok

D. But it did not belong to my grandmother

A. Well. what they did is probably saw how it looked like an old suitcase and

D. Yea

A. And jumped to conclusion that it belonged to your grandmother. Umm and since you haven’t been heard from in a long time like a week or so

D. No

C. (inaudible) (B&D talking)

A. Ok

C. Saturday evening

A. Ok, umm what they did is...they actually did enter you into the computer until last evening as a missing person. I don’t know if they had a time line or something in California. So I do have the name of the investigator out in California

D. Can...can I know his name

A. Sure, umm Detective XXXX

D. I don’t know him

A. Ok, he’s just...he’s...he’s the person assigned to the case. Let me give you his phone number umm Detective XXXX it’s XXXX

D. How can I be a missing person if I chose to leave for my own safety

A. And…and that’s umm anytime somebody...in Colorado somebody disappears ok and people report it believes it’s suspicious or you know whatever they can...and they can report you as a missing person. And what Detective XXXX needs is a phone call that says I’m ok, I’m not a missing person umm and then he can take you out of the


P96-21871

computer. Umm he was kind of surprise when I told him I got an interview with you this morning umm and basically for his job it’s kind of easy because once you’re declared as a missing… he’s gonna clear you as a missing person. That means you’re not gonna be in the NCIC…The National Law…National Wide Computer System as a missing person cause you’re not. We know where you’re at ok and that’s why it’s important to give Detective XXXX a call. (inaudible)

C. (Lee’s phone ringing) (inaudible) Hi Mary...yes I did and of course we’re very concerned and it was XXXX who umm made statements to the San Luis Obispo Sheriff’s….Detective XXXX…mm-huh...mm-huh (on phone talking) oh they ran her credit cards and they found…ok...ok...ok...ok...no…I don’t know where they’re getting that information from. Umm Mary…this morning when you faxed umm me the materials you faxed umm the most recent correspondence from Fleet White Sr. a note with the 85 umm or 87, 75 and the pictures with Goldie Hawn with Fleet do you have those two pages available to you…would it be possible to get it faxed those again to me

A. Is your fax not good enough

C. Can I…can I give you a…a different fax number

B. XXXX

C. It’s XXXX

B. XXXX

C. XXXX

B. XXXX

C. XXX to my attention please and umm do you all want to speak with

A. No we’ll talk to her later

C. We’re a...we’re in conference with umm detectives who’ve been very helpful and very courteous and things are going very well. Of course umm Nancy obviously very concerned about the uh…you know the connection to Boulder…do you feel safe…I don’t know…I don’t know unless XXXX mentioned something ok…well…one...one thing that they did…one way that they may know that she’s in



P96-21871


Boulder is the Boulder Police Department has had contact with the San Luis Obispo Police Department. That..that’s how they include Boulder…ok..ok…well that’s (B&C talking) (inaudible)

D. Or did…did XXXX actually say that I had been….that I was in Boulder Colorado

C. I do…we don’t know that

A. (inaudible) I haven’t talk to him

D. Ok (inaudible)

C. We don’t know that…right that’s how they…that’s how they know ok…and they had contact uh as a result to the NCIC missing persons registration…and…and so she will be cleared from that shortly but that’s how they know in Boulder. Now you mentioned…you mentioned connection to Fleet White in the Ramsey investigation...XXXX mentioned that to the police...ok...ok...ok...ok...alright...alright thank you bye

A. Ok so let me...let me finish giving you Detective XXXX pager number it’s XXXX, and he’s a detective with the San Luis Obispo (B&D talking)

D. Mind if I call back will that stop that right now

A. Yea that’s….that’s something (coughing) (inaudible) all he’s gonna do is take you out of the computer...Doesn’t matter because nobody gonna contact you while we’re sitting in here ummm

B. All it is...is a welfare check basically. If an officer would stop you on the highway out in Utah or something they would have said hey are you ok, you would have said yes they would have called the detective and say hey take her out she’s ok...You can talk (low voice) (inaudible)

A. Right

B. You know it’s not a warrant, it’s nothing at all it’s just a welfare check

D. Ok, I…I have a really really big concern now because I’m not saying how I got from San Luis Obispo



P96-21871

C. No one’s asking you (inaudible)

D. To Los Angles, yea

A. Ok

D. I’m not going to

A. And that

C. (inaudible)

B. Why is that a big deal

C. She’s concerned about the safety of her therapist whose received telephone threats and menacing statements from her grandmother who happens to (inaudible) (low voice)

A. Ok, so your concern is towards your therapist

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, and do you have a concern for your safety right at this moment right now

D. Yea, I do

A. Ok

D. I didn’t want anybody to know that I was here

A. Ok

D. And for…because I can guarantee you that my grandma’s has been on the phone with Fleet White and told him that I’m here

A. Ok, and that’s…and some of this is safety issue that we have to deal with also

C. (inaudible)

A. Ok, and again (inaudible) ok




P96-21871


B. Let me ask you real quick, who’s car was it that was left out there

D. Mine

B. It was yours, and where did you leave it

D. I left it at a shopping mall

B. At a shopping mall

D. Yea

B. Ok, and...and it did have luggage in it

D. Yes it did

B. Ok, is there a reason why you would not take luggage with you

D. Yes there is because umm a person that drove me to Los Angles and I...we felt that we were being followed so I didn’t even grab the suitcase

B. Ok

D. I just left, just the clothes I had on

A. Can we back up just a little bit, so the photographs and stuff that we’ve talked about earlier these photographs are they still at your grandmothers house or are they some place else

D. Umm, they’re some place else

A. Ok, they’re not

D. Some of them might be, I don’t know which ones I..I took...I have a couple of different places I have things

A. Ok, generally I guess what I’m looking at is there evidence out there is there information out there umm that the originals of photographs that can be destroyed

D. Yea, there could be some stuff destroyed



P96-21871

A. Ok, but you also have some other stuff, that won’t be destroyed is that correct

D. Right

A. Ok, now jump back for our information will give me XXXX phone number if I need to…umm again it sounds like she’s already talked to the sheriffs out there umm

D. (inaudible) XXXX

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. It that XXXX

D. No. XXXX

A. XXXX, ok is there anybody else that you talked to about this about in general what’s occurred

D. I think those are the main

A. Ok, we’ve talked about just a moment ago, that your grandmother will be calling Fleet White Sr. or Jr.

D. Sr.

A. Ok

D. I’m sure it’s already done

A. Ok...ok lets take a step back umm we got off in a tangent a little bit, you were gonna tells us about the last encounter…the last sexual encounter with Fleet White Jr. back anywhere from 76 t0 78…umm cause we were talking just a little bit about

D. And you’re gonna turn your tape on

A. Oh ya, the last sexual encounter with Fleet White Jr. umm around the time of 1976, 1978 umm tell me...uh lets start over with that…tell me about that




P96-21871

D. Well can I…can we stop that for a minute

A. Sure

D. Cause I have some real safety issues now

C. I know...I know can I talk to you (inaudible) (door closing?) (inaudible)

A. Ok, hold on just a second let me see if I got the fax (inaudible)

C. Ok...we’re gonna take care of this

D. (inaudible)

C. (low voice with B&C) ok well she...she apparently told Mrs. B (Both talking in a low voice)

D. I never…I never told her that

C. You never told her that

D. No

C. Ok

D. (inaudible)

E. How are you doing

C. Not very well, and so it’s been (inaudible) also an issue (inaudible) you know (tape noise volume went up) it’s a very small town

E. I heard you

C. The Boulder Police contacted the San Luis Obispo and told them that they were going to be here…San Luis Obispo umm… (inaudible) an issue of San Luis Obispo umm is it’s a very small town

E. What about the size of (inaudible)




P96-21871

D. It’s 35,000

E. Is it

C. And…and in the past you know umm I mean the word gets out real quickly and as we expressed umm that has a great concern to a degree that the hindrance will be um what will happen next…I mean what’s happening now… does she feel strongly (inaudible) of course Fleet White Sr. has already been contacted by her…

E. By whom

D. I guarantee you that

E. By your grandma

D. Yes

E. Ok...ok so lets assume that…I’m just trying to take this a little further down the road here. Lets assume that umm and lets assume further that Fleet White Jr. has been contacted...ok umm so we’ve had safety issues that we’ve worried about even before all of this right here.

C. Uh-umm

E. And we’ve been concerned the last three days (inaudible)

C. Absolutely and this

E. So we’re just…we’re…I mean it’s sort of more of the same we’re just gonna have to weigh

D. No…I..I say that up’s everything and I’ll tell you what…those people will be dumping things like crazy...knowing that I’m here

C. It :(s up the case (inaudible) you know it’s like calling them and saying shred you know shred…

E. Oh and we know just because of the of the…of the you know the allegations about the offers of money that they...you’d think they’d…



P96-21871

C. Well they…

E. Already concerned

C. …..aware of the concern however umm nothing umm I mean there concerned about lots of things and the direct action to this case has made very...very pointedly clear by

D. And also

C. A report from the Boulder Police that she’s been interviewed here today

E. Well I think…all around if I’m understanding…I don’t know cause I haven’t talked to anybody

C. Mm-huh

E. In San Luis Obispo that’s it’s all around the missing person thing. I mean and…and we

C. Which we understand

E. We anticipated that umm well. here’s…here’s a suggestion I have for your concern umm I think this is a very helpful interview

C. Yes, it is

E. Yea, I think so…and uh

C. She hasn’t even gotten started with the interview

E. She needs to get started if you have the strength to do that, so that we

D. I know they’re going for stuff that really

C. That has...has very little to do with the crediability

E. Well…I..I think except I..I think they’re about to get into that

C. Ok...ok



P96-211871

E. Umm and…and I just would like you know umm I think you’re doing terrific...I just would urge you to stay with this so that we can do...so we’re able to go

C. Right

D. And...and my other concern and it’s a major concern for me is that my therapist drove me to Los Angles

C. Mm-huh

D. And my family is not going to…think very kindly of that

C. There’s absolutely no harm, she has no responsibility...you’re not a ward of your family you’re not a independent child

E. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible) (D&E talking)

E. I mean I’m sounding pretty impress with your therapist especially you know I understand she’s you know and (inaudible) background and so on and she can handle this

C. She…she…she….

E. You know I’m concerned about you and umm I just I think we should move forward so that uh

C. Oh absolutely we’re prepared to do that but umm

E. Ok

C. I wanted to (inaudible) (C&E talking)

E. And then we’ll have to...we’ll have to work through some of the security things

C. Ok, (inaudible) (C&E talking)

E. As best we can



P96-21871

D. You both make me feel very safe to even want to talk now (B&C&E talking)

E. Well

D. It’s like an automatic shut off

E. Well you need to talk to Lee and...and...and take guidance from him on that cause I think you’re doing fine and uh…we need…we need to uh…get on down the road with this

D. I…I have some things that are very valuable and I…I have feared for my life for along time. That’s true but I think the things that I have and the connections that I can make are gonna freak those people right out.

C. Is...is...is it I wonder if there’s any basis for us to go into (inaudible) security you know. I mean you know she…she will give them everything she needs to make a California case for unlawful imprisonment

E. Mm-huh

C. Right now

E. Well lets…lets get that done and then that…that is gonna give the basis for us to answer that question

C. Oh ok...ok

E. Ok

C. And sorry thank you for listening

E. And I will...and then...and then we’ll ..we’ll deal with these security issues, I think to your satisfaction

C. Thank you…..Nancy I’m sorry

D. Well I told you that last night

C. Right you have a feeling (inaudible)



P96-21871

D. Mm-huh, I felt it and let me tell you what I was scared sick last night. I just felt that they were doing something

C. Well we have you in the right place

D. And..(inaudible)

C. Unfortunately ok…(inaudible)

D. Mm-huh, because they’ve done that before

C. Ok

D. They’ve actually taken my computer

C. (inaudible) with respect to what we’re doing now, I mean in many ways you have crossed the river Kahn you’ve heard that expression...I don’t remember what it means...it’s a river that the Greece and the Romans crossed and once they crossed it they were in the territory where they had to continue living for where there’s know turning back. That’s where you are right now and so as patient as you can be and as much as you can help them get the information they need every step (inaudible) (noise in room) you continue to disclose will help these people help you and umm they’re aware of your concerns and they’ll become more aware of your concerns as you explain more about the background

D. Ok...can I...can I share with you now that’s it’s here

A. Ok

D. And it...that’s and that’s from Mary…ok can I see the notes please

A. Oh yea

D. I want to see how

A. Ok, so we...looks like we got 3 pages from Mary right

B. (inaudible)

A. It looks like we got 3 fax pages from Mary (coughing) (inaudible) and a cover sheet



P96-21871

Umm 2 pages are photographs and again the quality of photographs...umm top photographs that’s Goldie Hawn

D. Right

A. And Fleet White Sr.

D. Right

A. Ok, and the bottom photograph is who

D. Umm Fleet White Sr. and this person

A. Ok

D. Cement Czar…W. T. Ray

A. And do you know Cement Czar…W.T…W. T. Ray…

D. I didn’t recognize him (inaudible)

A. Ok, Fleet White Sr.

D. Yes

A. Ok, and it says January 2000 Denver Post, I take this photograph is out of the Denver Post

D. I guess so

A. January 2000, ok do you need to write that on there

D. Nope

A Ok

D. And then on...it’s...it’s really hard to see on this copy but in his own writing he’s put Goldie up here on the top

A. Ok...ok umm so this is a photograph bottom of the photograph looks like it appears in




P96-21871


the Denver Post from January of this year umm and of Fleet and this cement person

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok and you had to other pages there looks like ones a let me start with this one

D. Ok

A. To get this out of the way, this is from Fleet White uh..1-90, no 93 master circle Costa Mesa California

D. But it was sent from Aspen Colorado

A. Ok, this is an address in Costa Mesa that Fleet Sr. lives in

D. Right

A. Correct, ok and he has “To Alyce” who is your grandmother that you live with and again it was sent from Aspen Colorado February 9, 2000

D. Right

A. Ok, (inaudible_ (talking B&D)

D. But it was sent to my grandma’s first name Christoff

A. Right

D. Not her current name is Sprague

A. Correct

D. Which has major significance to me because of what I was telling you about my grandfather

A. Ok, and you’re talking about major significant because Fleet Sr. and your grandfather Christoff…(coughing) it has major significance because your grandfather Christoff the granddad Christoff and Fleet Sr. were having an argument back in February 6 of 66 when your grandfather died




P96-21871

D. Right

A. Ok

D. And the only other thing that has come to my house address like this in...in the name of Christoff is his...the

C. His…his funeral notice

C. His...his...his funeral umm the calling card that was distributed at…his funeral

A. Ok...ok

C. That was sent to her recently

A. Ok that’s all (inaudible) (A&C talking)

C. That’s all calling attention (inaudible) and that’s recorded on the video tape that we used (inaudible) (A & C talking)

A. Okay, so this is just…this is a photo copy a fax copy of the envelope that your grandmother received with the two previous mentioned photographs and then three…three notes that you have shown me

D. Right and I would like to say also that...that to me this means something...umm SOS

C. SOS is a misspelling probably a deliberate one of Los Oso’s

A. Ok, Los Oso’s California ok...ok and you also have three notes there

D. Right

A. Ok

D. And I’d like to tell you something...I took this envelope out of my mail box and did not give it to my grandma. I went directly to my friend Mrs. B’s house…XXXX

A. Mm-huh

D. And opened it in front of her

Bump to put interview in order.