The Nancy Krebs Interview - Part Three

PAGE 101 THROUGH 149

PRESENT.
A. Det. Tom Trujillo
B. Det. Chuck Heidel
C. Lee Hill
D. Nancy Krebs
E. Alex Hunter

P96-21871

A. Okay, so you actually have this envelope some place and these notes and photographs some place

D. Right

A. Not at your grandmother’s house

D. No

A. Ok, tell me about the three notes with the photo copy under one page here

D. And I think that..that the note show a lot better

A. Ok

D. The actual notes

A. Ok

D. That this is a 75 and over the top of it is written 87

A. Ok

C. Have you explained to them what the phone call regarding 75

D. Yea

C. Ok

A. Just a little bit we haven’t got into that all the way yet umm so tell me..tell me what this first note says

D. I said I think..I think the reporter must have been drunk to write something like that about a and then it’s…there’s 75

A. 75

D. And then 87 over the top dear old man

A. Ok, and that has to do with that first…the picture of the Cement Czar and him ok




P96-21871

(cough) the second note

D. II think the reporter must have been crazy or drunk for him to write something in..on there note you can see a lot better it says tike underneath

A Ok

D. With an “L” written over it

A. Ok

D. Like about…about a 87 year old man

A. Ok

D. And then this note says Goldie came to our New Year’s party

A. Ok

D. Which I was invited to go

A. Ok

D. To there New Year’s party in Aspen Colorado

A. What year was that

D. 2000

A. Ok, now

D. Or 1999 whatever (inaudible) (talking)

A. (inaudible) 1999 to 2000

D. Mm-huh

A. Now tell me how these notes fit in with your phone call reference the money and stuff like that cause that’s where we stop so you could get these notes


P96-21871

C. Oh thank you (talking in the background)

A. Ok

D. The reason I wanted to see this..is because the date on here it..that I wanted to make sure that I was right about the time that he was calling

A. Ok..ok

D. And I wanted to see your calender again, cause that will help me tremendously

A. Ok, we’ll do it this way..February 7th is a Monday..February 8th is a Tuesday. Does that help or do you want to see Lee’s Calender. This would have came in on Wednesday February 9th

D. This is Monday

A. February 7th was a Monday

D. See I can not be exact on the

A. Okay

D. These calls..I just

A. Ok

D. I’m trying to think..I..I know that..I’m pretty sure that there was no call made on Saturday. I don’t think that there was a call made on Sunday and then I think that there was another call made on Monday

A. Ok, generally tell me about the calls, umm even though you can’t say ok on Saturday this is what was said. Sunday this was what was said, tell me what was said during the conversations of the calls

D. Well the first call umm when ever that came

A. Ok

D. Was from umm Fleet White and


P96-21871

A. Sr or Jr...Sr

D. Sr

A. Ok

D. And umm he talked to my grandmother

A. Ok

D. And umm they were talking about how she was feeling, I could only hear one side of the conversation…my grandma’s side of the conversation

A. Ok

D. And he…she told him that her Parkensins was really bothering her that she was quite ill, that she wasn’t able to see very well. And he…he was talking to her about her illness at first

A. Ok

D. And then he asked if he could speak to me

A. Ok

D. And he like I tried telling you…whenever he speaks to me…he speaks to me in a manner of like I’m a child

A. Ok

D. And he’ll start reverting back to like I’m a child. And he was asking me how his favorite girl was how was I doing umm would I come to Aspen

A. Ok

D. To see him because his wife Nyla was gone

A. Ok, is that everything that occurred during the first phone call

D. That I could remember right now

P96-21871

A. OK, tell me about the second phone call, not so much when it occurred, just tell me generally

D. Ok, the second call

A. Ok

D. Was that same day whatever day that was

A. Ok

D. From nyla

A. Ok

D. To my grandma

A. Ok

D. Then Nyla was asking my grandma how she was doing, how she was feeling and my grandma said to Nyla..what is…what's going on about that…and this is what my grandma said that JanBonet case…what…what do you know about the JanBonet case

A. Ok

D. And then umm ok…I…I want to get this just as good as I can…my memory umm…she said what's going on with the JanBonet case. My grandma said well you have to ask Nyla that..and Nyla started talking to her and she said…well here…here's Nancy and so Nyla started talking to me about umm that umm Fleet was very disturbed that he spending spending all of his Fleet Jr…

A. Ok

D. Was very disturbed…was spending all his time and all of his money on trying to find the murder of JonBenet and that umm…the next thing I asked her was well how is Daphne doing and she said, well Daphne is fine. Daphne has a lot of friends and Daphne is very resilient and she talked about something about how something she missed the most was the sharing of their dolls

A. Ok


P96-21871

D. But that she was very resilient that she was doing fine. And then she up…also told me that Fleet Jr. and…


(end of side A)

A. Did that occur

D. Let see…I’m not sure of the date. But I can verify the date later..I think the content

A. Ok

D. On the conversation is probably a lot more important

A. Ok

D. And that was umm if I remember correctly it was a phone call to my grandma in the afternoon

A. Ok

D. And he spoke to my grandma for a little bit just very basic things…how are you feeling and what’s going on. And then my gram..he asked my grandma if he could talk to me, cause my grandma gave me the phone

A. Mm-huh

D. And he asked me how…how was his little girl and everything and he said that he wanted to ummm make sure that I wouldn’t speak to anybody…about what I knew

A. Ok

D. And he said something about if I gave you $75,000.00 would that stop you from talking. And I said I don’t want any money, I won’t say anything

A. Ok

D. Because that…

A. Now is this what you knew about what, do you understand what I’m saying


P96-21871

D. He didn’t..he didn’t say what

A. Ok…

D. (inaudible) (A&D talking) but I think

A. What do you…what do you believe he was talking about

D. I think that he was talking about everything that I know from my childhood, everything that I know about the recent event that took place in Boulder

A. Ok, lets stop there tell me what event took place in Boulder? What…what is that

D. The death of JonBenet Ramsey (?)

A. Ok, and what do you know about that

D. I know that the day after Christmas, I received a call from my mom and

A. Mm-huh

D. That I was at work, and it was a day after or two days after I’m not really clear about that but it was in the…in a couple of days (cough) after the actual murder

A. Mm-huh

D. And she said to me had I seen the television, that they had umm Fleet White she was talking about Sr..Fleet White Sr as a suspect. That she had seen it on some television program

A. Ok, so this one to two days after

D. Right

A. Ok

D. And she was calling me from my sister’s house in Arvada

A. Ok

P96-21871

D. At least that’s what she told me, that she was in Arvada at my sister’s house

A. Alright

D. I don’t have anyway to prove that just that…that’s where she told me she was

A. Mm-huh, so she’s

D. And that Fleet White Sr was a suspect and that it talked about him and his oil company on his Extra show

A. Ok, that was the name of the show that it was talking about this

D. That’s what she said

A. Ok, what else did…did it talk about (inaudible)

D. Umm she had told that she had been with my niece XXXX to Fleet and Pricilla White’s party…their Christmas party

A. Ok, when was that

D. When was their Christmas party

A. Yea, when was Fleet and Pricilla’s Christmas party that she was at

D. That she had just recently been like

A. Ok

D. To the…their Christmas…I

C. Some people have Christmas parties on other days beside Christmas

D. Yea

C. You understood her to be

D. Christmas day


P96-21871

A. Ok, so your mom and your niece is your sister’s XXXX…

D. Right

A. Went to the White’s house on what you believe was on Christmas day

D. Right

A. 1996, and your niece is your sister’s XXXX…

D. XXXX

A. XXXX daughter

D. Right

A. Ok

C. (inaudible) (low voice)

D. No

C. Your notes

D. No, XXXX

C. And how old is she

D. Her full name

C. How old is she do you know

A. How old is XXXX now, that’s easy

D. Umm, I mean I should know this but my brain is

A. Are you getting tired

D. She’s 8


P96-21871

A. And so she’s 8 years old now, so three years ago she would have been 5

D. 5

A. Ok

D. Her birthday is in December

A. What’s her birthday

D. The 12th or the 13th

A. Ok, so your mom took XXXX umm over to the White’s house

D. That was what I was told

A. Ok, umm just during the day

C. Can…can I ask you something…you said Christmas day…day time or night time…did..did she say

D. She did not

A. Ok

C. She didn’t specify

D. No

A. So sometime during Christmas day umm your mom took XXXX over to the White’s house

D. Right

A. But she didn’t say day or night or

D. No

A. How long they stayed or anything





P96-21871

D. No

A. Okay umm lets keep going

D. Ok and the next thing I remember about that was receiving a phone call from my grandma

A. Ok

D. (inaudible) by her (inaudible) and she called and…excuse me…start talking to me about Fleet White

A. Ok

D. And she said to me you know he’s guilty. But she also was speaking about Fleet Sr not Fleet Jr

A. Ok

D. That’s how I took it, in the way that she was talking to me

A. Ok..how..how did she know that Fleet Sr as it were umm was guilty

D. That’s just what she..that’s what she said to me

A. Ok

D. It’s Fleet Sr

A. It’s Fleet Sr who did the homicde

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok

D. And she said that he’ll never get caught, he’ll never get caught. I remember

A. Ok

D. Her saying that to me. I don’t remember anything else about the conversation but that




P96-21871

seemed important to me at the time


A. Ok, and again there talking about Fleet Sr

D. Right

A. (inaudible) ok go ahead

D. And then umm I think the next thing of importance..it had been talked about on several different occasions umm my mom and Trona told everybody that she knew about Fleet White Sr being her godfather and that you know that..I don’t know what else she told them but that..you know that there was an interest in the Ramsey case with our family

A. Ok, did your mom talk to any…anybody else about that, like reporters that sort of thing

D. No..no reporters but I know that she talked to a lot of her friends

A. Ok, so mom talked to friends about your family being involved with the White family reference the…the Ramsey homicide

D. Right

A. Ok

D. And then umm this is the next thing of..of major importance

A. Ok

D. It would have been umm in either the end of July or the first part of August of 98. My niece umm and nephew came over to Los Osos from

A. Ok

C. XXXX

D. My niece XXXX

A. XXXX and her brother





P96-21871

D. Right

A. Ok

D. XXXXX came lets see..my sister left Arvada in May of 98

A. Mm-huh

D. And went to Germany and she left her children in the care of my mom. And I think for awhile my mom came to Colorado and took care of the kids probably till around the end of June or something..something in that area

A. Ok

D. I can’t be real specific about that right now. But I know that they came to my house at the end of July or August and I think it was probably August…and I had taken XXXX and XXXX and my next door neighbor whose little boy whose about the same age

A. Mm-huh

D. Right in between XXXX and XXXX and XXXX. We all went down to XXXX in the Rio Grande…and they were having a side walk sale at a Payless Drug Store

A. Ok

D. And XXXX was looking through some things they had these bins out and she saw…she was looking in this bin and she saw uh…a binder that had a picture of a Barbie on it and she like instantly became hysterical. Just started screaming, yelling and you know just saying umm they’re gonna kill my umm guinea pig… (inaudible) they’re gonna take guinea pig…they’re gonna…they’re gonna kill me…they’re gonna kill me…and she was hysterical. So we had earlier planned to go to for pizza…and I knew that she couldn’t go so I took XXXX to my car and she got in the back seat of my car I got in the front seat of my car and she just kept over and over saying that they were gonna kill her…they killed the little girl…they were gonna kill her umm and I couldn’t…I couldn’t reason with her…I couldn’t talk to her…I couldn’t get her out of it. And the whole time that the..that XXXX and XXXX and XXXX (?) were in the pizza place. They ordered pizza they had the pizza she was in the car still screaming.

A Ok, whose guinea pig were they gonna kill





P96-21871

D. Hers and

C. XXXX

D. XXXX

A. How does that figure into this whole thing

D. Well beca…because umm they would use threats to something that you really cared about.

A. Ok

D. I mean that’s happened to me several times when I was a child. They would pick something out that they thought meant something to you and they would tell you that they were gonna kill it or they would you know they were gonna hurt it or

A. Ok, did..did XXXXX ever tell you who was making this threat towards her

D. No

A. Just they were..they

D. They…they

A. But you don’t have any idea who

D. No

A. Ok, go ahead

C. Can…can I…Tom…I’m sorry when you say you don’t have any idea who is that true or do you have an idea based on your experience (C&D talking)

D. Oh I have an idea

A. Ok

D. But she’s saying they, she’s not saying grandma…she’s not saying





P96-21871

A. Ok

D. My daddy, my mommy. She’s not giving a specific name. She’s saying they but to me they would mean my family

A. Ok, as in your mom. Your mom and Dad, you mom and dad and sister

D. I would say more umm my mom

A. Ok

D. Umm I also think XXXX father and uh..I think you know that whoever was where ever that this took place, whoever was there

A. Ok

D. And so what happened after that was umm they came out, they had eaten their pizza and it was about a 6 mile drive from there to XXXX house and XXXX still in the car…in my car in the back seat and her brother and XXXX are getting into the car and she’s freaking thinking that they’re gonna do something to her

A. Ok

D. So she’s trying to open up my car door, which had power locks and just screaming on the top of her lungs that they…they’re gonna kill me…they’re gonna at one point she said they were gonna umm chain her up they were gonna kill her…and she kept saying the same things over and over again

A. Ok (inaudible)

D. And anybody got close to her and she would just start off again

A. Is XXXX older or younger than her

D. Older and they

A. Ok

D. XXXX and XXXX were both in the back seat with like holding their hands over their ears because she was screaming so loud and so I dropped XXXX and XXXX and




P96-21871


XXXX off at XXXX house

A. Ok

D. And XXXX is still screaming still freaked out in the back seat. And I thought that if I took her down by the beach that…she loves the beach that it might calm her down.

A. Mm-huh

D. I took her up there and probably for another 15, 20 minutes she was still screaming these things. And just kept going so I took her up to a school because I always felt safe at school, it was like (cough) the one place I felt safe

A. Mm-huh

D. I took her up there and I just kept talking to her and trying to get her to come back out of whatever she was living or whatever was happening

A. Ok

D. And so I…I kept talking to her and talking to her and she finally just came out of it like nothing had happened

A. Did you ever talk to her about what she was thinking about, what she was reliving

D. No, but she…the things that she was saying and because I had already…my mom had already told me that she had been at the White’s Christmas party I thought that she had witnessed something

A. Ok, so…so you think that XXXX had witnessed something at the White’s house

D. Yea, cause it…cause she kept saying they you know they killed her they killed her they killed the little girl

A. Ok, did XXXX ever talk about JonBenet by name

D. No

A. Ok, umm had you ever heard of the Ramsey’s or had…XXXX talking about… talked about being over at the Ramsey’s house at all



P96-21871

D. No

A. Ok, only at the White’s house

D. Right

A. Ok

D. And XXXX didn’t actually tell me she was at the White’s house, my mom told me that

A. Right…right

B. And…and just…just to make it clear…your mom said that they were at a Christmas party there, she didn’t specifically say they were there on Christmas day

D. Right

B. Ok

A. Ok, now do you know Priscilla White at all

D. I’ve met her a couple of times

A. Ok, do you know her family at all

D. I know that there from umm Southern California

A. Ok, have you had any contact with Priscilla her family at all

D. Not much

A. Ok, umm it sounds like all the…the sexual assaults everything are focused around Fleet White Jr and Sr

D. Right

A. Umm has Priscilla been involved in any type of activities like that at all that you..that you know

D. None that I ever saw no




P96-21871

A. Ok, umm and it looks like to me that when Fleet White Jr the last time he assaulted you Priscilla was not in the picture is that right

D. (inaudible) (A&D talking)

A. They weren’t married or anything like that

D. I don’t really know that

A. Ok

D. So I’m not gonna say that, I really don’t know

A. Ok, umm

C. Are you ok

D. Mm-huh

A. And let me ask, I don’t know if we covered this or not umm have you ever met John and Pasty Ramsey at all, do you know who they are

C. Can…can I…can I interject something here

A. Mm-huh

C. There’s some background to this

A. Ok

C. Umm in my efforts to evaluate Mrs. Krebs creditability umm I ask her..a similar…similar question and she’s hesitating now because umm she doesn’t have the same type of documentary evidence to support this

A. Ok

C. But she will readily relate to you her understanding and belief of her contact repeatedly contact with John Ramsey over the years

A. Ok




P96-21871

C. That by way would preference to explain (inaudible) of why she (A&C talking)

A. Ok, could we start with Pasty Ramsey. Have you ever met Patsy Ramsey

D. Umm, I think that I have

A. Ok, where do you think you met Pasty Ramsey

D. In Sacramento California

A. Ok, when did that occurred

B. There’s somebody in the lobby for something…has something for you

C. Excuse me, (inaudible)

D. It would have been in the late 70’s

A. Ok, down in..in

D. Sacramento

A. Sacramento

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, so late 70’s was Pasty Ramsey, with John Ramsey at that time

D. I don’t know, that’s not…that wasn’t the connection

A. Ok, that wasn’t the connection

D. No, they it wasn’t that they were together

A. Ok, tell me meeting Pasty Ramsey in the 70’s in Sacramento

D. Umm……it was at….I saw her at a function that I was attending for uh…convention of Rainbow girls

A. Ok, so you it was kind of a casual con…




P96-21871

D. Uh-huh

A. Casual contact umm was she a speaker or anything

D. No not that I remember

A. Ok, so she was just at

D. Because I was very umm high up in the Rainbow girls and umm and in “Jobes Daughters”and so we’d go to these different umm functions

A. Ok, and she just…she was just there, ok but she wasn’t like a Keynote speaker or anything like that.

D. No

A. She was another participant

D. No

A. Ok, other then that time have you ever met Patsy Ramsey

D. No

A. Ok

D. Not that…I have to really think about that one

A. Ok…ok, umm when was the first time you met John Ramsey

D. When I was a very small girl

A. Ok, and where was that at

D. It would have been either at the White’s house in Huntington Beach

A. Ok, and which..which White’s are we talking about

D. Umm





P96-21871

A. Sr or Jr

D. Sr

A. Ok

D. Or perhaps even my grandparents house or there’s other location but I don’t want to get into all those. I think right now I want to stick with

A. Ok, tell me about your contacts with John Ramsey

C. Probably the ice breaker, some of the documents that I gave you umm the type ones were prepared in the course of umm her therapeutical relationship with Mary Bienkowski

A. Mm-huh

C. And she writes about is this ok

A. That’s fine

C. (inaudible) this is tough for you

D. Mm-huh

A. I think if it gets jump started that’s fine

C. Ok, she names uncle Johnny in one of the pages in there, she writes about encounters with uncle Johnny. Do you want them to read that

D. Yea

C. Or do you want to read it to them

D. I also want to show them that letter

C. Yes, and there’s a letter here also. I can help you find it, thank you for your patience….how are we doing for time, are we

A. We’re fine





P96-21871

C. You guys work all the time

A. Pretty much

C. Unfortunate….(shuffling papers)….God Dam….(low voice)

B. Some of this stuff that you….

C. The stack that Alex has may have all the missing pages

A. Ok

C. (inaudible)

B. Yea, actually this is…this is what I need

C. Ok, sorry about that

B. So (door slammed)

C. Is there a restroom in here, or do I need to go out to the lobby

A. (inaudible)actuality is probably the closest, you want to take a restroom break

D. Yea

C. Do you have to take restroom, is that alright

A. Yea, that’s fine we can stop this

C. (inaudible) (C&D talking in a low voice)

B. While we’re waiting for Tom, let me run some names by your real quick

D. Ok

B. XXXX

C. (Cough) excuse me





P96-21871

B. XXXX

D. No

A. (inaudible) ok (inaudible)

C. Yes sir

A. Ok…ok why don’t you get started show me what you got, this one here

D. (inaudible)

A. Ok, your uncle John is referred to

D. John Ramsey

A. Ok, and who’s this letter from

D. From me

A. And this is the one that was done during therapy right

D. Right

A. With Mary

D. Uh-huh

A. And when approximately did this letter get written

D. I’m not sure

A. Ball park

C. 10…10 years, you’ve been in therapy for 10 years so the later time or the first

D. The later half

C. The later half….and..and for Detective Trujillo (inaudible) you might want to explain the this letter




P96-21871

D. Mmm

A. Ok……..

C. Do…do you think you should look at this letter to. I mean this..this actually (phone ringing) (inaudible) this letter provides great deal of context in terms of Mrs. Krebs experiential point of reference I guess I can barely describe from that (inaudible)

A. Ok, so while he’s reading that lets umm this is the first ones..page one to your uncle John umm kind of put this in context so we’ve have some idea where..where all this is coming from

D. Ok

A. If you wouldn’t mind

C. This..this document puts it into context in terms of her family history and all these documents were prepared in connection with efforts she was making to memorialize the ethic story that is her life of abuse

A. Ok

C. For her parents

A. Umm

C. And…and the reasons there’s not additional pages here

A. Mm-huh

C. Umm I collected these pages using Mrs. Bienkowski xerox machine which literally ran out of toner while she was xeroxing these pages

A. Ok

C. While I was there in XXXX

A. So umm

C. This..this letter dated 1974 who was that from




P96-21871

D. My mom

C. And it refers also to

D. To my grandma and grandpa who were in Oregon at the time and umm she talks in here about umm I talk to Johnny every Saturday. He calls me at Sue’s house around 11:00

A. Ok, that’s gonna be John Ramsey (phone ringing)

D. As I know yes

A. Ok

D. Umm he sounds so lonesome and I miss him so much, but hopefully it won’t be to much longer. He just might be here on Thanksgiving, he has to buy a car and he wants to get a 1970 and I guess they run about $1600. I don’t know if that’s all really about a car or..or if about some other money that maybe that he gave my mom

A. Ok

D. Umm it’s been 5 months since I last saw him and then speaking of Thanksgiving I would like have you come to my house. I think the family should be together on Thanksgiving, it would be such fun

A. Ok

D. And the kids would love to see you and hopefully Johnny would be here. I hope it’s possible

A. Ok and this..this is from whom

D. My mom

A. And it’s to her mom and to Al

D. (inaudible) (A&D talking)

A. And Al is which grandfather






P96-21871

D. Her step dad

A. Ok, your mom’s step dad

D. Yea

C. That’s Spragues…

A. Albert

C. Who you’re talking about

D. (inaudible)

A. Ok, so in 1974 umm mom writes letter talks about Johnny coming over for Thanksgiving, that sort of thing. And again this is the person that you know as John Ramsey

D. Right

A. Ok, and lets…again instead of…kind of a to conserve…a conserve a little time we have all of these and we can read them over umm but I think it’s more important is..tell me in here this first page umm dear John…dear uncle John letter umm can I give you….tell me what these paragraphs mean if you could as opposed to you know you know could kind of go back and forth umm it’s easier if you just tell me what..what you’re talking about

D. Ok, umm this was a letter that I was not going to sent

A. Mm-huh

D. First I’d like to say that, it was a letter that I was writing umm out of frustration

A. Ok

D. And out of…of a bunch of anger that I have

A. And this a letter that’s written

D. Towards John Ramsey






P96-21871

A. As part of therapy

D. Right

A. Ok

D. And in this letter I’m expressing my feelings about how he treated me

A. Mm-huh

D. What he did with the money or whatever that was made from umm prostituting me in pornographic films and pictures

A. Ok

D. And it’s also saying what little that I know about the involvement that he had with my family and in a business sense

A Ok, so let’s take the last part first..so you knew John Ramsey and your mother and your father were in some sort of a business agreement

D No..no I am saying that some of the money that was made on some of the film that they did and prostituting of me and probably countless other people were funneled through business or things that John Ramsey would set up for them

A Ok, so again to make sure I’m straight…so your parents are the ones that were doing this sort of stuff, and they were funneling money through John Ramsey. Does that make sense

D No, I’m saying John Ramsey had as much of a part in it as anybody else in my family. But he was the person who was ditching the money.

A. Ok

C. Also can I add

A. Mm-huh

C. Just for clarity, umm when you refer to my family are you including reference to the Whites as being part of the family (inaudible) (talking)




P96-21871

D. What….what I’m saying I’m saying this…this whole group of people

A. Ok (loud cough)

D. Have been (coughing) involved in these types of things for many…many years

A. Ok, lets talk about the types of things John Ramsey was involved in, cause obviously that’s the part that interest me the most ok. Tell me what John Ramsey was involved in as far as you

D. As far as me

A. As far as you

D. He was involved in umm abusing me

A. Ok, abusing you in what ways

D. Having umm sexual intercourse with me

A. Ok

D. Having umm doing umm you know sodomy, oral copulation putting me in positions where I was in bondage

A. Ok

D. Where I would be umm sometimes chained sometimes umm tied sometimes umm like tortured with little tiny sticks that they would put on fire…and insert…insert inside of me

A. Ok

D. Just little tiny sticks umm they used different Instruments including John Ramsey

A. Ok, and again and..and

D. Broom sticks, little broom stick handles off little whisk broom

A. Ok, and again lets focus on just John Ramsey for right now ok





P96-21871

D. Well I’m saying he did all of those things

A. Ok, when was the last time you had any…any contact…any contact with John Ramsey

D. That I remember was when we were living in Los Osos

A. Ok, and when was that

D. It would have been when I was in the 7th grade, and I had missed so many days of school

A. Ok, that was the last day you had contact with John Ramsey

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, when was the very first time that you remember having contact with John Ramsey

D. It would have been at about the same age as umm with Mackey and Fleet, and Fleet Jr and so it would have been around the age of 1 ½, 4 years old

A. Ok, so between 3 ½ up to 7th grade, umm again lets kind of put together a time line based on that…those…those years. Lets start on the 7th grade time line and we’ll go way back ok and again lets…lets narrow our focus to just John Ramsey right now ok umm last encounter with John Ramsey that…that seems to kind of be the easiest is figuring out the last time that you had an encounter with him. Umm lets talk about that

D. The last time that I remember

A. The last time that you remember

D. Yea, umm (coughing) I know that we were living in an apartment building in Los Osos

A. Ok, with whom

D. I was living there with my mom

A. Ok




P96-21871

D. And my sister and brother

A. Ok

D. And my mom and I shared a bedroom and my sister and brother shared a room

A. Ok

D. So during this time they were lots of men who would come over and they would have sexual intercourse with my mom and sometimes they would or would not with me in the same bed

A. Ok

D. And what I remember about John Ramsey being there was that he was there several times when I was in the 7th grade and that he would tie me to the bed or tie me in a closet on a thing that we had in our closet uh like where you hang up clothes

A. Ok, like a clothes just clothes rack

D. Yea, like a…a pole in the closet

A. Ok

D. And he would umm have sexual intercourse with me or sodomize me or oral copulation and lots of time there was actual film speed taken movie cameras of this and also pictures

A. Ok

D. (inaudible)

A. So did they…did the video’s show both of you, did it show you and John Ramsey

D. Yes










P96-21871

A. In full…full body type pictures

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, so

D. And lots of times they would use, especially if they had you’d tied it up they would use two different camera’s. They would put a camera towards your head and…and a camera towards your genitalia

A. Ok, now could you also see John Ramsey’s head in these photo’s or these video’s

D. Yea

A. Ok, have you ever seen these video’s playing

D. They weren’t video’s and

A. Ok

D. They were umm put on umm real..real tapes

A. Ok, little real tapes

D. Yea

A. Ok, have you…have you seen these video’s

D. Yes I have

A. Ok, do you know where those video’s are at currently

D. No, but I can tell you that when I lived in Trona with my mom and step father, that they had a movie screen out in the…a big like open patio and they would take umm me and my sister and my brother whoever else happened to be there and some men and teenage boys and they would all go out unto this patio they would pull down this screen and they would show these movies

A. Ok, and these…these movies of John Ramsey and you





P96-21871

D. And different and various other people

A. Ok, and again lets…we’re gonna focus just on John Ramsey for right now

D. Mm-huh

A. Umm again focusing on the very last encounter that you can remember with John Ramsey and actually umm lets go…lets go to that step by step…that occurred at your mother’s apartment

D. Yes

A. Ok, lets go step by step what occurred

D. I can give you the address

A. Ok

D. If that would help you, it was at the time it was called umm XXXX or XXXX and it’s now on XXXX in Los Osos

A. Ok, so lets…lets talk about that last encounter with John Ramsey, how did it start umm you talked a little bit about who was there but tell me what occurred specifically just on the last one

D. It’s really hard for me to say which one is the last one

A. Ok

D. I mean do you understand that I…oh excuse me…umm

C. Will explained why it’s hard for you to (inaudible) (C&D taking)

D. Well cause there were so many different people involved

A. Ok

D. In these…and also right now and fearing a lot of fear for my life

A. Mm-huh




P96-21871

D. And for the lives of couple of other people, so I think that I’m loosing

A. Ok

D. But

A. Loosing focus a little bit

D. Yea

A. And again the reason…the reason I’m going to the last..the last time is..is kind of how you focused in on Fleet White Sr

D. I know…I…know

A. Is the last time

D. Well I could also say about John Ramsey being there was that at other times there would be other men there

A. Mm-huh

D. And at those other times like especially if they were going to be doing a movie they would use umm methods of bondage. And if it was not with ropes it could be like…chains or handcuffs or

A. Mm-huh

D. Umm pantyhose or whatever they just felt like using at the time and they would bring Mackey in on those occasions to umm strangle me

A. Ok, how do you mean strangle you

D. I mean he would use different things at different times but a lot of times he would go for my neck and he would push

A. Ok

D. What I now know to be like this an artery and he would push and push and push until I could hardly breath



P96-21871

A. Ok

D. Or he would take umm some kind of like umm a little string or a small rope or just anything to put around me and just like almost choke me to death

A. Ok, did you ever become unconscious

D. Yes

A. (inaudible)

D. I would pass out sometimes

A. Ok (inaudible)

D. And he would…and then Mackey would…especially at first when he first started doing that to me as a young child when I would pass out he would just get extremely…extremely angry

A. Because you passed out

D. Right

A. Ok, again we’re talking about Mackey, lets…lets bring the focus back to John Ramsey

D. But I think it was important to tell you because of that…that Mackey could have been there on the last time, it could have been one of the times that they had made this movie one of the movies of me being strangled

A. Ok so

D. And there was a reason that they did that and that was because and I…umm till this day I don’t understand why or what the mechanics or whatever but if they wanted me to be excited in the sexual way that’s what they would do

A. Ok

D. If they weren’t if…if….if…because a lot of times when they were doing things to me my body would just shut down and it wouldn’t get the effect that they would want




P96-21871

A. Ok, so by…like choking you out like you talked about by causing you do go unconscious, they believed that excited you in some sort of sexual way

D. Yea

A. Is that what you’re saying

D. Yes, I…that’s what I’m saying

A. Which would facilitate the assault on you

D. Right

A. Ok, and have you seen any photographs have you seen the photographs ever in the newspaper, tabloids and all that of how JonBenet was tied up

D. Umm have I seen any, I don’t think any real umm close up pictures or anything no

A. Ok, cause on those on the very beginning of this whole case (coughing) there were the tabloids were out right there…the tabloids had photographs that they had located of the ligatures umm that JonBenet was tied up with, did you ever see any of those photographs

D. I really don’t know, I mean I could be in a market and be shopping and see something on the front cover so I’m not gonna say I never saw anything like that

A. Ok

C. Do you remember ever seeing anything like that (inaudible) do you have any specific memory of having seen

D. No

A. Ok, umm did you ever read again tabloids and the main strain…news…mainstream news media has put a log of information out on this case, good, bad, false whatever umm there’s a lot of information out here. Have you ever read…read any specific reports or accounts of this case, of our case the homicide case

D. Well I can tell you that my grandma had umm a couple of Enquires






P96-21871

A. Ok

D. At the house and one in particle that I know she had was a picture that had…a Fleet White in it and she asked somebody not me to buy it for her

A. Ok, umm other than the Enquires that you’re talking about the two that your grandmother had have you…have you read anything else about the Ramsey Homicide case

D. Umm when I saw umm when on Lee on television just recently I went to my computer to check to see what kind of a person that Lee was if it was a if he was a person that I could trust

A. Ok…

D. And so

A. How did you find Lee on your computer

D. I went to the Fox News

A. Ok

D. Cause he had been on there that day

A. Is that…is it through some sort of a Ramsey connection or just Fox News had his picture so you clicked on it

D. Umm no it was umm about another case that he had worked on

A. Ok

D. About the Ramsey’s

C. When Miles deposition first became public Fox did all day long they were running stories and that was about two weeks ago, yesterday

A. Ok

C. And that’s what you’re referring to





P96-21871

D. Yea

C. Ok

A. Ok

C. And..and when they run a story they have a picture on there web site

D. Mm-huh

C. Is that what you accessed, ok

A. So you’re talking about you accessed of the Fox News web site

D. Uh-huh

A. And there was some sort of icon you clicked to find Lee Hill, is that

C. Did they have a link to the Daily Camera

D. Yea

C. That…she has explained that to me

B. I have a question for you

D. Uh-huh

B. Umm clear this up for me, the link that you made to John Ramsey is through the letter from your mother to umm your grandmother reference a John..Johnny and umm is there any other

D. Well my own memories

B. You memories…okay and that’s my next question is you seen pictures of John Ramsey

D. Yea

B. And did you recognize him as a person that you knew as the person that you described all this stuff happening at the apartment




P96-21871

D. Yes

B. Ok

A. To go a little bit further, what pic…and that’s what I guess I’m trying to get at with the Ramsey stuff, what pictures of John Ramsey have you seen recently.

C. (inaudible)

A. He’s basically all over the news through the whole case…umm I mean did you see him…did you see CNN interview

D. Mmm I’ve seen bits and pieces of it I haven’t watched the whole thing

A. Ok, did you watch the CNN interview of the very beginning of the case

D. Umm I don’t know if I did that or not, if I saw that or not

C. Can I ask quick question

A. Mm-huh

C. Did you ever know this man’s name was John Ramsey before the murder had occurred. Did you know his full name

D. No, I knew him as uncle Johnny

A. Ok, so again when you saw…you don’t know whether you saw the original CNN interview with John and Pasty Ramsey

D. No

A. Ok, have you seen other taped excer…excerpts from that video

D. I really don’t know…I really don’t know how to answer that because there’s been so much and in distant passing I don’t know how much I’ve seen or not seen

A. Ok

D. I mean my grandma has the television on almost all the time




P96-21871

A. Right

D. And my grandma focuses on news programs

A. Ok

D. And if there’s anything umm about JonBenet my grandma watches it

A. Ok, I guess basicly what I’m getting at in I think what Chuck was getting at is at what point and time in the last 3 years did you see a picture of John Ramsey and realize that’s uncle Johnny. At what point and time did that occur

D. It must…I don’t know the first time that I saw him on television. I can’t really say that

A. Ok

D. But I’m sure that whenever I saw him I knew that’s who it was

A. Ok, and again that’s what I’m looking for when..when’s about the first time you remember equating John Ramsey to uncle Johnny over the last 3 years

D. I’m sure it was soon after they were on television

A. Ok

D. I just don’t know when

A. Like within the first couple of days that sort of thing

D. I mean

C. Can I ask another question

A. Mm-huh

C. Did you know that uncle Johnny was married and living in Boulder and had a six year old daughter before this hit the press. Did you know any of those family details about uncle Johnny

D. Well another picture that was umm sent to my grandma was a picture of JonBenet and




P96-21871

Daphne

A. Ok and that’s

D. So

A. Is that in the paperwork you have now

C. No

D. No

A. Again that’s at your grandma’s house

D. I don’t know where that picture is, it was at my house

A. Ok, so when did your grandmother receive the picture of JonBenet and Daphne

D. Probably soon after it was taken

A. Before the homicide then

D. Right

A. Do you remember umm any details of that pictures, where they were standing umm surroundings of the picture

D. Umm but it was like kind of a white background that I think that they had some kind of animals with them

A. Was it a professional portrait type picture or just a snap shot on a 35mm or something

D. No a professional picture

A. Ok, so professional picture out there of JonBenet and Daphne taken at some kind of portrait studio

D. Mm-huh

A. Light background any other details of the pictures. You talked animals being around




P96-21871

D. I thought there’s was rabbits or something in there

A. Real rabbits or stuffed animals

D. Real, I don’t know

C. Do you remember what they were wearing

D. Hats or something

A. Ok

D. I mean I don’t really

A. Dresses, pants

D. I think dresses

A. Ok, and how big was this picture

D. Umm 5X7

A. Ok, so it was fairly good size picture

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok and actually I know the Ramsey’s photo…photographer so maybe we can get that ok

B. Did you ever ask your mom about uncle Johnny or did you ever talk to her about this whole

D. No

B. Ok

D. I mean it wasn’t unusual for them to use a first name for somebody

A. Ok






P96-21871

D. That was not unusual at all and they were just known as uncle so and so

B. Ok, did…did you have ask your sister or brother about uncle Johnny

D. No

B. Ok, would they know who he is if we talked to them

D. I don’t know, you’ve have to ask them

B. Alright, were they involved in any of the sexual assaults at the apartment that you talked about where uncle Johnny was involved, were they…did they participate in any of that (inaudible) (coughing)

D. Yea, I don’t remember them being there at the time and I was kept home a lot from school and they were sent to school

B. Ok, ok so you’re saying you may have been isolated from them and they may not know what was going on

D. Right

B. As far as you know

D. Right

A. But again your sister was also a..a victim of is it Mackey

D. Right

A. And does she remember any of that occurring

D. I’m certain my sister remembers but I also know that my sister has been very reluctant to talk

A. Ok, and why is that

D. I don’t know you’d have to ask her but, I mean she’s

B. And I think the question is..is..is umm have you talk to her about this stuff




P96-21871


D. No

B. You…or have you talked to your brother about any of this

D. About

C. And..and why..why have you been reluctant to talk (inaudible)

B. I mean are they telling you no I..we don’t want to talk about this forget about it, I mean what’s the response if you have talked to them before about this, or if you have…

D. My brother…umm that’s my brother’s response always is

B. Ok, and your sister’s response is what

D. Is about the same

B. Ok

A. Is it that they don’t want to get involved they don’t want to remember

D. I think that it’s that for my sister, my sister obviously still involved by having her daughter going to places

A. Ok

D. And having her..even at my mom’s house knowing what happens at my mom’s house

A. Ok

D. Both of her children and leaving them in my mom’s care and also umm I think for my sister that she has a lot of fear

A. (inaudible)

D. Yea

A. How





P96-21871

D. Because all along when these thing happened there’s always some kind of a threat attached to whatever they just done to you. And if you get those all of your life you don’t want to talk to people

A. Ok, where are your sister’s children right now

D. In Germany

A. With her

D. yes

A. Ok, do you think that (coughing)do you think that they’re in any danger right now

D. I don’t..I have know idea what’s going on in Germany but I know that if they were brought back here that they would be in danger

A. Ok

B. I may have…I may have misheard you but I think that you mentioned something earlier about there father

D. Uh-huh

B. Being involved in this also

D. Yes

B. Ok, and is he still with XXXX

D. Yea, but for

B. They’re still together

D. right, for awhile when umm my sister moved to Germany like I said my mom kept her kids and…and uh…XXXXXX was also there in XXXXXXX that’s my sister’s husband

B. Uh-huh

D. And then he left there and I…I think this is right that he went to work in Las Vegas,




P96-21871

and he left the kids with my mom in Trona and then my mom actually flew over with the kids to Germany

A. And took…and kind of hand delivery of them to your sisters

D. Right

A. Now is your sister’s husband in Germany or in Las Vegas then

D. Las Vegas, he just recently went to Germany within like the last umm 8 months or so

A. Ok, so now with your sister’s husband with the children’s father being with them in Germany do you think there’s any danger against the kids now, just being in Germany with their mom and dad

D. Umm I really…I don’t know

B. Nancy is there a way to get XXXX phone number in Germany, do you have…have that or is there a way you can get that

D. Well I’ll…it was…I had it at my house

B. Ok

D. But I didn’t bring it with me

B. (inaudible)

A. Is she attached to XXXX out there

D. Uh-huh

A. And where in Germany is she at

D. Where in Germany?

A. Yea (door shut)

D. Umm XXXX





P96-21871

A. (ONE LINE REDACTED)

D. Yea

A. Ok she's a civilian

D. Yea

A. (ONE LINE REDACTED)

D. (ONE LINE REDACTED)

C. Oh really

D. (ONE LINE REDACTED)

A. Ok, let me make sure that I have her husband's name, why don't you give me her husband's name again

D. (ONE LINE REDACTED)

A. OK, now (REDACTED) in the military

D. No

A. (ONE LINE REDACTED)

D. No

A. Ok

C. Who does he work for

D. He had this civilian job (REDACTED)

A. Ok so he's not doing the same job he was doing here in Arvada

D. No

A. Ok



P96-21871

D. When he was here in Colorado and when he went to Las Vegas he was a heavy equipment operator and that’s the type of work he was staying in

A. Ok, and I thought earlier you talked about that he had something to do with tanks and computer systems

D. My brother

A. Ok, that’s your brother that did that

D. Yea

A. Got it, so XXXX a civilian XXXX in Germany

D. Right

A. Do you have any idea what he’s doing XXXX other than civilian stuff

D. They don’t live XXXX

A. Ok, so is he just working in Germany

D. Right

A. Or is he working XXXX

D. He works XXXX but my sis…he and my sister have a private residence

A. Ok, and it’s XXXX

D. Right

A. Ok, what….what is he now doing XXXX

D. Uh…last that I heard he was driving a fork life

A. Ok

D. For XXXX or something like that





P96-21871

A. Ok, so you think some place at your house that your mom your grandmother’s house you have a phone number for your sister

D. Uh-huh

A. Ok, what’s her date of birth

D. Umm 9-20-64

A. Ok, and she’s a civilian alright is there anything else about John Ramsey umm actually have you talked to anybody else other than your therapist about who John Ramsey is. How does he fit into this whole picture, who else have you talked to about that other than Lee

D. Umm well I spoke to XXXX

A. Ok, about specifically that John Ramsey was uncle Johnny

D. Umm no I…I didn’t…I don’t think that it was more that I told her that there was a family connection

A. Between you and the Ramsey’s

D. Right

A. Ok who have you told about John Ramsey being uncle Johnny

D. The only person that I’ve said that to would be Lee umm Mrs. B

A. Ok

D. And umm Mary Bienkowski

A. And your therapist

D. Uh-huh

C. May I add that in your frame of reference this is before coming to Colorado you know the…the leap from leaving California to coming here…





P96-21871

(end of side B tape 2)


(Tape #3)

A: After you realized that that John Ramsey was Johnny who was the name of the first person who told that to?

D: Well I think that would have been XXXX

A: Okay. And do you remember when approximately that occurred?

D: No.

A: Okay.

D: I have no idea.

A: You told XXXX is there anybody else that you related, um, related that to?

D: Not that I can remember.

A: Okay. Let me just ask is there anything else, now we’ll get another tape, is there anything else we’re missing here? Um, you know, we’ve kind of jumped around quite a bit but you had some specific information that you wanted to give us. Again my final efforts is more towards the Ramsey investigation. But if there is anything else that we are missing, um (inaudible) Chuck?

B: Let me get another tape.

A: Um, is there something else we should ask you? Is there something else specific to the Ramsey investigation that we haven’t covered?

C: This page, as it relates to Mackey’s role. The fact that he passed away in November and also if you ask her about the significance of Christmas and the way things, the way that holiday was (inaudible) celebrated.

A: Okay.

Bump to put interview in order.