The Nancy Krebs Interview - Part Four

PAGE 150 THROUGH 190

PRESENT.
A. Det. Tom Trujillo
B. Det. Chuck Heidel
C. Lee Hill
D. Nancy Krebs
E. Alex Hunter

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C: Um, I think you'll find her information very um, very related and interesting.

A: Okay, let me back up, Mackey died in November of what year.

C: '96.

A: 96.

A: Okay, that's what I thought. (Inaudible, mumbles) Okay, um, we'll start the tape back up here, you talked about a three page letter, is that right?

C: Well, it's a (inaudible, too many speak at once).

A: Before page four. The first page starts (inaudible) that sort of thing then we go to page two…

C: Yes.

A: …is that correct? That kind of is frame of reference to who wrote this letter.

D: I did.

A: And again, during therapy?

D: Right.

A: With Mary.

D: Right.

A: Um who is the letter written to?

D: It's not really written to anybody.

A: It's just kind of notes?

D: It's not really notes, it's just stuff that I felt I needed to get out of me.

A: Okay, yeah, that's finE: Um let's go to page two in where you talk a little bit about

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how Mackey fits into this.

D: Uh huh.

A: Um, where you talk about Mackey, you know, who Mackey is um, tell me how this all fits together. I guess, I want you to sum up a little bit about where you talked about how Christmas time fits in, Mackey died in November of '96, how Christmas time fits in, how the letter fits in. Why don't you, I'll let you tell me um, how this…

D: Well, how I think…

A: How you think it all fits together.

D: In that my family (inaudible) um, would count on, and that would be Mackey's job often times in, in those pornographic films and pornographic pictures being taken, that he would be the person to strangle the…somebody to the point where they wanted them.

A: Okay. So Mackey would be the person that would basically um, temporarily choke somebody out um, take them to the point of unconsciousness. Um, and you talked about earlier that he would use a ligature to do that? Or he would use his hands?

D: He would use all kinds of things. It was like he would use his hands, he would use little pieces of string, which I have one…

A: Okay.

D: …that I've had, um, and (inaudible) possessions and he would use ropes, um pieces of latex, um scarfs.

A: If he used a rope or a scarf, how would he do it? Just wrap it around and pull the ends? Or would he, how would he choke you to the point of unconsciousness with the rope?

D: Well it wasn't his purpose to choke me or anybody else to unconsciousness, that's not what they wanted to happen…

A: Right, right.

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D: …but to a point where you're uh, I can remember that my lips would start tingling and my eyes would feel like they were going to pop out of my head…

A: Okay.

D: …and that was all part of the look they wanted to get.

A: Okay. How would he use that rope to get that look? What did he do with the rope?

D: He would put it around my neck…

A: Okay.

D: …and usually on one side or the other, apply more pressure on one side or the other with the rope by pulling.

A: So let me see if I understand this. He just wrapped the rope around your neck and again kind of put the two ends on one side of your neck or the other and just pull it, kind of looking at you, just kind of pull the rope um 'till your eyes kind of bulged out a little bit like you talked about? Okay. Now again, how does Mackey fit into the whole Christmas thing and the death of JonBenet?

D: Well that's like all.

A: Okay, that's…

D: …all conjecture on my part.

A: Okay, tell me how you think this whole things fits together then.

D: I think that, that he wasn't he obviously wasn't there and they used somebody in his place that wasn't as experienced.

A: Okay

D: In doing that and that they went too far.

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A: Okay. So let me take this a little step further, do you think some sort of uh, snuff film, well it's not a film, a filming type thing?

D: Yeah. And I don't, I don't think that they meant to kill her and I'll tell you why. I think that because she was making money for them. She was, she was doing something for them and they wouldn't have wanted to kill her.

C: Will you tell them about your Christmas, tell them about your Christmas.

A: Actually Lee hold on for just a second. Let me make sure I understand what um, so you believe Mackey died in November, he's out of the picture. Obviously he's not the one to be able to control the victim, as it were, to get the effect that they wanted to get out of the victim, so somebody else took over Mackey's job as it were. Is that what you are saying?

D: Yes.

A: Okay. And doing, doing this to the victim's eye, uh, have her eyes bulge out, JonBenet's eyes bulge out, that sort of thing um, this person may have accidentally killed her. Is that what I'm hearing?

D: Yeah.

A: Okay.

D: And I don't know that her eyes bulged out. I don't know any…thing.

A: Right, right. No and I understand that. I'm just trying to relate her to, to your experience.

D: My own experience.

A: Okay. Um would they have, during this time, when they got to the point od actually strangling her, um, would they have had intercourse with her? I mean, is that kind of the same pattern that followed with you?

D: Yeah.

A: I mean, that's, cause it kinda sounds like to me um, when you got to the point of the

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Ligatures being placed around your neck, that's pretty far along in this whole…

D: Right with my…

A: …whole pattern of abuse. That wasn't the first thing that occurred.

D: Right.

A: And again, relating back to your pattern of abuse, the first time you were sexually assaulted they didn't put a ligature around your neck, correct? If you can remember.

D: I don't really remember that.

A: Okay.

D: That much, all I can really remember about anything being a first time, is like I say, is sitting on the toilet and just screaming and there being blood in the toilet and remembering that, you know back, somebody else had to be there.

A: Okay.

D: I mean, I…

A: (inaudible) And again I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but kind of along this whole pattern of abuse that occurred, did the, did the neck ligatures uh, did that occur, for what you could remember, towards the end of your abuse?

D: It was, yeah.

A: Okay.

D: In, uh, especially if they were filming or taking pictures.

A: Right, I mean it's not that they didn't film you from the very beginning, they didn't take pictures from the very beginning that you could remember?

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D: Oh no, The whole thing was filmed.

A: From the very, very first sexual um, contact that you had or…a specific event.

D: Well, lots of times from a…a…a specific event would be filmed.

A: Right, the entire event was filmed.

D: Right.

A: Well, I guess what I'm getting at is, this kind of pattern of abuse.

D: Right.

A: It started out kind of minor things, whether it be the fondling, the touching, that sort of thing up to a point where somebody had sexual intercourse with you.

D: No, in one particular event. But it would start out…

A: Actually I'm talking about the entire scheme. Um, the very first time anybody, whether it was Mackey, whether it was your grandfather, whoever, um, started this assault on you, numerous assaults. It kind of sounds like it followed a pattern. It started out fairly minor as it were, the very first time that you were assaulted by your grandfather, you were tied up. Do you see what I'm saying?

D: I think that would be really hard for me to remember.

A: And, and it may be.

D: All I remember is like…

C: There…there…was not a bolero effect from what she is telling me but a series of assaults and in each separate incidents it would start out with the equivalent of foreplay and it would escalate to different conclusions, either you know sodomy or…

A: Okay

C: …oralcop…or (inaudible) manipulating what looks like a female orgasm in a child

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by asphyxiation.

A: So that happened in the very, very beginning. Is that what I'm…

C: She doesn't remember precisely from our (soft spoken) conversations but…

A: Okay.

C: …her earliest memories include those features.

A: Do the earliest memories include the strangulation type stuff?

C: Yes.

A: Okay. And that's what I am trying to understand. So to relate this back to JonBenet, um, that um, the strangulation would have occurred during intercourse, is that what I'm hearing? And again…

D: In my own…

A: …based on your experience.

D: …I would say yes.

A: Okay, either oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse?

D: Right.

A: Okay, and they would have filmed this encounter, is that what you are saying?

D: Yes.

A: Okay, and they being both at least, John Ramsey, because of your past history with Uncle Johnny, who you say is John Ramsey, is that correct?

D: Right.

A: And Fleet White, either Junior or Senior?

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D: One or both

A: Okay, and again, that's so, the players that we should be looking at we should be focused on Fleet White Senior, Fleet White Junior and John Ramsey?

D: Right.

A: Are there any other people, other than those three, um specific to the Ramsey homicide that we should focus on that you know of?

D: As being there?

A: As being there.

D: Well my mom.

A: Okay.

D: By that conversation that I had with her on the telephone.

A: Okay, because she was, she took XXX to the White's house. Let me ask you this, where, I mean, we've collected evidence from the Ramsey home, but is there another house we should have collected evidence at? Or where you believe this homicide occurred? Bases on what your mom said from that phone call.

D: Well, I can't, she didn't, the only thing that would lead me to think that is was, it had been at Fleet White's house is the fact that she said she had been there.

A: Okay.

D: For a Christmas party.

A: Okay.

D: And to me this is very significant because a lot of times things would happen on Christmas and they would involve a Santa Claus and I have numerous, numerous pictures of me with Santa taken even in the same year, I mean, like it's Christmas 1964, and I might have three different pictures of me with two different settings of Santa Claus. I mean, they would often start out (inaudible) by using a Santa Claus

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a person dressed as Santa Claus, to fondle somebody.

A: Okay. So, in your history, Christmas was a significant time?

D: Right. And there was also another reason for things to happen on holidays like that is that then you would be given time to heal to go back to school..

A: Okay, so you are talking about that Christmas for you was a time when sexual assaults occurred for a couple of reasons. One so that you could heal up before you went back to school after the first of the year? Okay. Any other significance towards the Christmas holidays? I mean you talked about that and Santa Claus, any other significance?

D: Um, I just think that that, is just that's a good time to plan a [arty of some kind of event, have a lot of people over at your house and then have some of the people leave and yet the people stayed behind and it wouldn't be conspicuous.

A: Again, in this case, the White's could have had your mom over to the house with XXX. Do you think that XXX is a victim of this sexual assault also?

D: Yes I do.

A: Okay, so you think she was a victim of the sexual assault the night that your mom took her over to the White's house?

D: Yes.

A: Okay, and I base this because she is a living person and that is something we have to deal with also.

D: Right.

A: So, do you believe that XXX was a victim of a sexual assault? Is that right?

D: Uh huh, and I have some other things that happened this summer when XXX was staying with me.

A: Okay, what other things are those, other than, you talked about one um, where XXX and your brother and your neighbor all went down for pizza and all that, is there

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another event?

D: Well, that was in '98, in '99 um, my mom brought um, XXX, I actually went and picked them up in San Francisco from the airport.

A: Okay.

D: And, brought them to my house, my mom came to my house and picked them up at my house and my mom stayed there that time during that time and I think my mom was there probably about a week or so.

A: Okay.

D: And then she took XXX and XXX to Torona and they stayed there approximately two to three weeks, came back to my house and it was when they came back to my house that um things happened to XXX.

A: Okay, what things happened to XXX.

D: Um XXXX grandmother, XXXX had rented a room in a motel room all day in California called the XXX.

A: Okay, XXXXX?

C: XXXX.

D: XXXXX.

A: Okay, XXXXXX?

D: Uh huh, XXXXXX and she, first had XXXXX come over and stay with her a couple of days and then XXXXx came back, he seemed fine and the my mom took XXXXX and disappeared for a day and a half with XXXXX and told me that she was taking XXXXx over to where XXXXx was at in XXXXx, um I mean not where XXXX was, where XXXX was at in XXXXX.

A: Okay.

D: And then, um, when XXXXX came back, my mom brought her back to my house in

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handcuffs.

A: Okay.

D: And I have the handcuffs. I don't have them here with me.

C: There are pictures on the video.

D: And um they brought her back and XXXX laid down on the floor and started screaming and she was telling me they had stuck something in her ear.

A: Okay.

D: And that her ear was really hurting and, and she just kept laying on the floor and crying and I got into a very big argument with my mom and almost had a fist fight because I told her that I was taking XXX to the hospital and she didn't want to let me out of the house with XXXX.

A: Okay, did you take XXX to the hospital?

D: Yes I did.

A: Okay, and what did they find at the hospital?

D: They just examined her ears.

A: Okay.

D: They found that she had some irritation to her ear.

A: Okay.

C: Okay, can…can I interject?

A: Uh huh.

C: I video taped the sheets that describes severe ear infection that were delivered to her following the hospital visit. It lists XXX name, the date and the hospital on one form.




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A: Okay, now do you have those sheets that you are talking about the emergency room she or whatever?

C: (inaudible).

D: (inaudible).

C: No these are the standard form what to do with a severe ear infection, but they do include the girl's name and the date of admission and treating physician. They are in the custody of her therapist who also interviewed XXX associated with injuries other injuries she saw.

B: Did you ask your mom why she had handcuffs on XXXX?

D: I didn't have to ask why she had handcuffs on XXX.

A: Why were the handcuffs on?

D: Because that's the way they brought her back from the motel and they wanted her to know that she was still unable to leave.


A: Okay.

D: And that happened several times to me, I, I mean I think they were very well documented in my therapy and stuff about me being taken places in handcuffs and…

A: Okay.

C: Can I help a little bit please tell them other things that XXX complained of. Tell them about the photographs she had in her backpack.

D: Okay. This was, I believe it was the night before my, that XXX and XXX were supposed to leave to go to Germany.

A: Uh huh.

D: And I was helping them pack um, their clothes. They had a big suitcase and they each had a back pack and I was going to put something into XXX back pack and in um,



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a manilla envelope in like about the same size that one Fleet White sent those pictures in, inside there were some photographs and photographs were of mummified bodies, um, a scorpion and um an ant hill with ants.

C:. (cough).

A: And the significance of those three photos?

D: (sighs).

A: Did XXX tell you the significance of those?

D: Well, she had already told, I, under the pretense that I was taking XXX for breakfast, out to breakfast…

A: Uh huh.

D: Um, I took XXX to see Mary Bienkowski.

A: Okay.

D: Because I wanted her to be able to speak to XXX and hear for herself what XXX had to say and Mary, I did not schedule an appointment with her or anything, I just went by there. She happened to be out of her office and she, I told her that I had XXX out in the car and that I would like to bring her in. She said okay, and I brought her in.

A: Okay.

D: And Mary, in just very, very general terms started talking to XXX abnout what was, what it was like in Germany and um, she asked XXX what she had been doing and XXX told her that she had been to Torona her grandma's house and that she had been stung by ants and that um, and she had on her knee a um, visible, what I had known doe myself as a cigarette burn on her knee and she um, had a little mark up here on her forehead and she told um, Mary that she had been stung by a scorpion.

A: OK, which is the significance of the three pictures.

D: But I…




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C: (B and C speak at once) more than three, I have them on video.

A: Okay Did Mary talk to her about the events leading up to when she was handcuffed and brought back to the house?

D: No no.

A: Did she talk to her about that at all?

D: And Mary um, didn't want to and couldn't really actually because she had another client coming, talk to XXX any further.

A: Okay.

D: But XXX on her own, started just, I mean Mary was asking her very simple questions and she was answering her with very weird answers.

A: Okay.

D: About being at my mom's, about being stung by ants and she showed her several places on her where she had like bite marks and she told her about um, being stung by a scorpion.

A: Okay. Did Mary look at the injury to her knee? That you said is a cigarette burn, did Mary look at that at all?

D: Um, I don't remember if she did or not.

C: May I prompt another detail?

A: Uh huh.

C: That you are omitting at some point, did she speak of electrocution?

D: Yeah, She said that she had been electrocuted.

A: Okay.

D: And she showed Mary and myself some marks on her hands.




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: Okay.

C: Will you elicit elaborate on what that means to you based on your experience? (inaudible).

D: That these were very small marks, that they often times they would use little um, like the first thing I can remember from my thoughts was actually they wet my hand and had me pull out an electrical cord and it blistered my hand.

A: Okay.

D: This was like when I was very, very small. I think there even could have been the night my grandpa died.

A: And you talk about they being?

D: Being like my mom, my grandma, whoever. I don't remember actually who did that to me but I remember that happening. But they would take a little electrical things and shock you.

A: Okay.

D: Some little electrical things through you and um, also, and this is I have been telling Mary this for a long time, that they would use like um, a cattle prod to move an animal around with on you often.

A: Okay. Why would they hit you with that? I mean, so far you indicated just like on a hand type stuff?

D: No, the back of the neck.

A: Okay.

D: Um, on my bottom um just different places.

A: What would be the effect of the cattle prod have on you? What would happen when you got hit with the cattle prod?

D: Well it would like, um make you not want to move.



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A: Okay. Did you have any injuries from the cattle prod?

D: Yes.


A: What type of injuries did you have?

D: Like um, little red burn marks.

A: Okay.

D: Marks.

C: She has one now. She has recently been assaulted by the son of Mackey. Will you show them?

D: Yeah, I don't know how much it's there right now.

C: And how old is this feature?

D: Over two weeks.

C: Show them.

D: I don't know if you can see.

A: Okay um, again I don't see…I don't see just a real red area is there something specific?

C: Not sure, it's diminished. I tried to video tape this a weel ago and it didn't come out very well but there is a red swatch and um, the center portion of it is a little more crimson.

A: Okay. That's generally what I see kind of a red area on the back of your neck.

D: That's almost two weeks ago and when he saw me he took a picture of it.

(too many speak at once).

A: Cattle prod?

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D; A cattle prod.

B: And what's his name?

D: His name is XXXXXX he often goes by XXXX. And he does have a record.

B: And where did the assault take place?

D: San Luis Obispo.

B: Did you report it?

D: No.

B: Where dit
(many speak at once).

D: And there's a reason.

B: Where did it occur in San Luis Obispo?

D: Um, at a motel. I'm trying to think which one, because I've been taken to several motels. So let me think about that a little bit I can tell you.

B: He took you to this hotel?

D: Uh huh.

B: Forcefully?

D: Forcefully in the way that I knew if I didn't go I be a lot more hurt.

A: Okay. So you were intimidated into going to the hotel?

D: Right.

B: Was there any sexual assault that occurred also?

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D. Yes I think that if there was a woman who could see my bottom that would be better but I still have a mark there also.

B. Do you know which hotel this took place in.

D. Yeah, but I can't remember right now.

B. No but you would be able to?

D. Yeah.

B. And did you rent the room or did he rent the room?

D. Often times they would have me rent the room but I can't remember exactly how that time?

B. Okay, but you would be able to um, to show us a room number or show somebody the room…

D. Yeah.

B. …that it occurred in so we could find out?

D. Yeah.

B. And when did this occur?

D. About two weeks ago. A little over two weeks ago I think.

C. Well I visited you on Friday uh…

D. Twelfth.

C. Twelfth.

D. It was before that.

B. Okay.

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A: These marks that you talk about, are they. And you probably saw the one on the back of her neck, are they a single red mark or are they two red marks next to each other?

B: A single red mark. They're both in the, it's hard for me to see in the back of my neck. I can only look in a mirror.

A: But you have these on other parts of your body, right?

D: Yeah and usually it's more where the center will be a darker color red than the outer part.

A: The outer portion?

C: And you are saying you have currently visible marks on your bottom?

D: Yeah.

C: That a female detective could observe?

D: Uh huh.

A: And this, from the same time about two weeks ago?

D: Uh huh

A: And when was the last time you saw those, 'cause compared to what's on your neck the whole area is just kind of redish colored. Have you seen them recently so that we know they are still there?

D: I could go look.

A: Okay. Do you want to do that?

D: Yeah.

A: Now is probably a good time to take a few minutes and (inaudible) if there is anything else.

(Miscellaneous side conversation, hear someone leave the room).

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C: Some of the material on the video tape rich labels (mumbles, inaudible)

A: Okay.

C: (mumbles).

A: So it's (inaudible) Okay.

C: (inaudible, soft spoken) Okay.

A: I'm going to go make a quick phone call and I'll be right back.

C: Sure, I', going to use the bathroom.

A: Straight out and to your right there.

(Long pause)

A: (inaudible).

(Miscellaneous voices, nothing audible).

D: I do have a mark.

A: Still there? Okay. We'll see if we can get a female detective to come look at it okay? Be back in a second.

C: (inaudible).

A: (inaudible) be right back.

(Short pause).

D: If they don't believe me, this is really gonna suck. Because I'm, what am I going to do with those people knowing I was here and…

C: Right. I think that most people recognize you're doing this at considerable personal exposure and (inaudible).

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D: Well I think they do.

C: Feel free to engage them in any, ask them. Okay? It's okay for you to express yourself. It's okay for you to express and articulate your concerns. It's okay for you to tell them what you want them to know.

D: I also wanted to tell them that I have told Mary forever about how they hit you in the head. That's their favorite place to hit you because they don't leave marks.

C: They why don't you tell them that (coughs). There are several things that we need them to hear. (Long pause) I need to check myself into a hospital somewhere in Florida for a couple of weeks of sunshine and surf.

D: I'm ready to puke and…

C: Well there is a garbage can in here.

D: I know. I, uh, look how many of these things I've eaten. I'm just like, I know that as soon as this is over I'm gonna just crash.

C: Well, you know what, it's called (inaudible) okay and (inauduble).

(Door opens).

A: (inaudible).

C: Nancy has told me she is approaching uh crash several things that she urgently wants to communicate to you all.

A; Okay.

C: Do you want me to outline them?

(All speak at once, inaudible).

B: Let's have Nancy ask the questions you know, tell us what you need to tell us. And then we've got some questions too.

D: Okay.

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B: Okay.

D: What I would like to tell you is that I am very concerned for my safety and I don't know what I will do if you don't listen to what I am saying. I took great personal risk to myself to do this.

A: Okay.

D: And I hope you understand that. I also want to be very up front with you in that I have reported things to law enforcement several times and had them uh, not believe me about weird wacko things that I have been telling you about um, that would be in San Luis Obispo County and when I was living in Wyoming and um, well actually um when I worked with Inyo County um, there was a lot of things that I told them about pornographic films and torturers of animals and things and they told me at the time if I said any of that stuff at the trial that it would make me sound crazy and they just want to get this person on the assault charges.

A: Okay, and this is a person on a sexual assault charge?

D: on Macky.

B: You talking about Macky.

A: Okay.

D: I'd also like to say that I have and Mary can vouch this for me, that I have been talking about things like this for the last ten years and Mary has tried to get me help with this from a law enforcement agency and nobody would listen.

A: Okay.

D: And that makes me feel like I didn't do enough that is someone would have listened and they would have realized that these people are really going on and that I wasn't making them up (pause) and the reason I am really concerned about my niece and what's happening to her and what's already happened.

A: Uh huh.

D: And I know that it's just not, that there are also other children involved that I'm

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concerned about.

A: Okay. What other children are involved?

D: Well I meant that I thing I am concerned about Daphne White.

A: Okay.

D: And her grandmother's (inaudible) thing when I asked her about how she was doing was to me like I wanted to just, somehow go through the telephone lines at her when she was telling me that.

B: Okay Nancy, we're going to respond to your concerns because Tom and I have both done a lot of these types of investigations and um, I know that Lee has probably been on both ends of these types of investigations too. These are very serious allegations and that's why we had to be, we had to take a critical eye when you are telling us this stuff. That's why we are asking you all the background information ways to verify how this stuff happened. If we can't verify independently, if we can't corroborate in some independent means, it's not going to go anywhere and, and, to be honest with you, it's not fair to those that are being accused of this to go forward and Mr. Lee would probably agree with that. We've got to ask these specific questions so we can find ways of independently corroborating what you are telling us. So you might, it may appear to you that we are not believing you and you may…

D: No I haven't…I haven't felt that. I understand.

B: But I'm just saying, if you are or whatever, to be honest with you, it really doesn't matter to us. We have to take a critical eye towards this and, and that's what we are going to do and, and actually we'd probably tale less of a critical eye than if this would go to court or go to trial or be judged so that we nail them what we are doing right here and that's what in a way we are preparing for. And you've been through this before. You've probably had this thrown at you during the Mackey investigation. Correct?

D: Yeah, and uh…

B: Well, you understand where we are coming from then on this thing?

D. I do.

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B. Alright.

D: I do understand.

B. Okay.

C. But I also think if you talk to XXXX or XXXX you need to ask about all the events that took place upon my life at the time of the trial. About how there was a bomb threat called into the school I was attending in Torona and it had to be evacuate the entire high school up to the football field.

B. Hey, you know, you don't have to convince me of that. As well, I…

D: I'm just saying.

(Some inaudible, both A and B speak at once).

B. The Mackey thing is a done deal. I mean the guy either pleas guilty or was found guilty. I think he plead guilty, so that's a done deal. That one's (inaudible, A&B speak at once).

C. I'm just saying safety issues that they have been after me in very cruel ways for a long, long time.

A. Well, we understand your concerns and we're glad you told us.

B. Will you remember, because you asked me to remind you, about the head hitting.

C. Oh okay, I would like for you to ask Mary when you speak to her about how long I have told her about their favorite place for um to be hit is in the head.

A. Okay, and what does that have to do with…

D. I'm just saying that that is a place where they like to smack you around and that is because they don't necessarily want you walking around with big bruises and if they smack you really hard in the head it doesn't usually leave a visible bruise.

A. And how does that relate to the sexual assaults that have occurred against you?

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E. I mean that, they did that very often

A. Strike you in the head?

D: Yeah.

A. Okay.

D. With fist, usually fists, they'd pound me in the head.

A. Okay.

E. But I would really like you to ask her about that.

A. Okay.

B. What did, or when did you first tell Mary the therapist about Uncle John? When did you first mention it, do you remember?

D: Well…

B: Let me ask you this, was it before or after um, December of 96 (inaudible, A&B speak at once).

D: I'll tell you, Mary had that letter in her possession before 1996.

B: Okay, hold on, before or after the um Ramsey homicide?

D: Before.

B: It was before? Okay.

C: In 1974.

B: In 1974, okay. And she had that letter, did you relate to her before the homicide then the information about Uncle Johnny because it doesn't mention anything about assaults in there. Did you mention to her about Uncle Johnny assaulting you before the homicide?

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D: I'm sure I did. I'm sure that I, uh, at some point I made a list of different people names and that was before anything came up and I'd like to tell you that I have, uh, Mary would, better be able to tell you, but there was a break in my therapy with Mary.

B: Okay.

D: Um, sometime during that, in fact, when all of this happened in Boulder, I was not seeing Mary.

B: Okay.

A: So let me take it one step further. So you talk about Uncle Johnny with Mary prior to the Ramsey homicide? And it wasn't until after the Ramsey homicide when you saw pictures of John Ramsey on the news that you equated John Ramsey with Uncle Johnny?

D: Right.

A: Okay.

B: Was that then when you got the letter from your mother to your grandmother that refers to Johnny?

D: No. That letter…

B: Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, no I'm thinking of this other letter here. So the Uncle Johnny, well you're saying that Mary had possession of that before the homicide.

D: Right and then Mary gave me back some of my papers and I think that I had that letter and then I gave it back to Mary.

B: How many papers did you give Mary? I mean have…

D: How many papers?

B: How many letters.

C: I'd say a box.

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B: I mean is there a stack a box and…and…and this was all given to her over time during your therapy?

D: Right.

B: Okay, so there's lots of stuff you gave her?

D: Quite a bit more.

B: Okay, did you have any other therapists besides Mary?

D: Um, …very…let's see, I was seen by a court appointed psychologist and um, when the Mackey trial was happening there was a doctor in Bakersfield that did the evaluation of me.

A: Do you remember the doctor's name?

D: I sure do, I don't know why.

A: Okay.

D: His name was Doctor XXXX.

A: Can you spell the last name for me?

D: XXXX.

(End of side of tape).

B: (in progress, second side of tape 3) wanted to talk about but you didn't. Do you think of some stuff that you would like to talk to the doctor about?

D: I'm saying I talked to the District Attorney's office about it at the time. They told me we want to get this person but they started saying these other things were not going to be able to. People aren't going to understand what you are trying to say.

A: And we understand that but then at the same time did you tell this court appointed doctor this information also? Did you give that same information to the court appointed doctor?

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D: No, because I think that was before. I mean they did the psychological evaluation I think was pretty soon after um, the allegations were made. So I'm not really…

A: Okay.

B: I have a real quick question about that. Was your mother supportive during this thing?

D: No.

B: Did she show up in court? Was she in court?

D: Uh, …

B: Were any of your family members?

D: Uh, my…I'm trying to hink…my dad came and I don't know that my dad went inside the court room um, XXXX was there.

B: XXXX ?

D: Yeah, the theacher.

B: Okay.

D: because I was living with his family.

A: During that time?

D: Uh-huh. And um, my mom basically at that time when things were going on I was um pretty much shunned by the rest of my family. I was with the rest of my immediately family. I would see my sister or brother, I mean my sister told me later on that they were told I was, that they were to act as though I were dead.

A: Okay. Did social services take you out of your family…parents house?

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D: No, I did.

A: Okay. Social Services didn't get involved as fad as removing you from the family home or anything?

D: No.

B: Had you even gone to Aspen to see Fleet White Senior?

D: Yeah.

B: And when was the last time you went there?

D: I tried to tell you that it was in the 70's sometime.

B: Okay.

D: And then I went with my grandma and grandpa. I Think that would have been after my grandpa retired and I would have to find out when that was.

B: Okay. And that was the only time you went to Aspen?

D: That I have any recollection of, yes.

A: Okay. Was this kind of a family trip, you and your grandparents?

D: Uh-huh.

A: I mean, it wasn't they say let's go, you have to go or anything like that, it was more just you with your family, your grandparents that makes sense.

D/ Uh-huh. I was taken on several different trips with my grandparents Krebs and different things happened on those trips and it was like every summer that they would take my sister and I on these three week vacation things and they would all be about vacations, it would be about stopping at different peoples houses along the way and different things being abused on the way.

A: Okay. So basically your grandparents would take you and your sister?

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D: I think one time my brother went but most of the time it was my sister and I.

B: On basically a family trip to a location or a destination…

D/ Different locations. Like I can remember that we stopped in places like Santa Rosa, um…

A: California?

D: …Yeah, Hooverville, Ferndale, um Portland, Oregon, um, one time we went all the way up to Canada and went to Vancouver Island, went to um, Penticton, Princeton and um, different places.

A: And on these family trips, then with your grandparents, were you sexually assaulted along the way by different people? Did they…

D: Right.

A: Specific stops at different locations for youo to be sexually assaulted at?

D: Right.

A: Ok…aAnd that's the way,, when you took the trip to Aspen to see Fleet White Senior…

D: That was with my other set of grandparents, but the same kind of a deal.

A: Okay, so both sets of grandparents, if they would take you and your sister on a family vacations during the summer, you would make stops along the way?

D: Right.

A: And these stops were so that different people could sexually assault you?

D: Yes.

A: Is that right? Okay.

B: You know we haven't talked about him yet, Fleet White junior. We need to talk about the details of the assaults, how he was involved, if at all. We didn't talk, we

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talked about Senior and I think we ra;;ked about John Ramsey but you (inaudible).

C: (coughing).

A: And actually you were getting ready to talk about the last time Fleet White Junior assaulted you and we kind of took a break and (inaudible)

C: And you said it was gruesome.

S. It is.

A: Okay. Can we talk about that, can you tell us what occurred on the last time?

D: Um, I, I want to describe the layout of my moms place in Trona.

A: Okay.

D: It would make a little bit more sense. When we first moved there, um, Tom, my step dad had a trailer that had two bedrooms and his brother Mackey and his two young sons were already living there. So with myself, my sister and I shared a room, my mom and my step day shared a room and the rooms were at opposite ends of the trailer and my brother Mackey, XXXX and XXXX all stayed out in the living room of the trailer. Also on the property was a, like a um, like a pull type trailer and um, like this little uh a little trailer and sometimes Mackey would stay out there and on this night in particular, the last night that I remember Fleet White being involved, a lot of Mackey's and Tom's nephews, there's a whole bunch of Boykin's that live out there and a bunch of their friends and Fleet White Junior and my step dad and Mackey all raped, I can't remember who took me out to the trailer, I think it was Mackey, he tied me up in the the trailer and um, they would he would instruct certain people to come in and they used a small coke bottle on me several times and what I can remember about Fleet being there was him being um very, very rough with the coke bottle that he used and that they were sticking these sticks in my rear end and that, I remember I had passed out a couple of times during the things that were happening because there were just so many people there and I can remember him telling me because I was…was bleeding and everything that this is something that not his just accused but that when you're old enough to bleed you're old enough to butcher.

A: Okay. Now who specifically said that?

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D: Fleet White but he was not the only person who told me that.

A: Okay.

D: I mean that was something that also that Mackey told me but I can remember that he said that to me.

A: Okay, so he being Fleet White said that?

D: Yeah.

B: Jr.?

D: Jr.?

A: Okay was Senior there that night?

D: No, I don't remember him being there.

A: And how old, approximately how old is Fleet White Junior um that last time?

D: Well, I'd say I was probably fourteen or fifteen years olD: So he'd probably have been twenty eight or so, thirty.

A: Ok D: I don't know, just around there.

A: Around that age? Is Priscilla White involved in anything like that?

D: No. She was not there.

A: Okay, she wasn't there at all?

D: No.

A: Okay.

D: She was not.

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B: Did you ever um see Uncle Johnny and Fleet White Junior or Senior together?

D: Yes.

B: Okay.

D: On multiple occasions.

B: Which place, at this place?

D: No. Earlier, especially when I was younger.

B: Okay, about how old?

D: Like from four to say ten. I would say there was more concentration during that time of those three people all being there.

A: Okay. So again, after around the time you were ten, is that the last time you think that Uncle Johnny was?

D: No, I think that he was at the apartment building that we had and I would have been older at that time.

A: Okay.

D: I would have been more like eleven, twelve, thirteen, until we move to Trona. And I do know this, you were asking me about social services…was social services ever called in…calling and um, when we lived at that apartment building, there were so many people, so many men coming in and out of the apartment building that the neighbors called child protective services.

A: Okay.

D: And I don't know whatever happened to that because soon after that we moved to Trona.

A: Okay, so that was around the time you were eleven to thirteen, that social services was called, child protective services?

D: Well, I think that it was closer, very close to the time that we actually moved to Trona,

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Which was when I was thirteen.

A: Okay.

D: And I think that that was part of the reason for us moving because they were getting worried that we were drawing too much attention at that apartment building.

A: Okay.

D: I, I do still know of one person that lives in Los Osos actually two people that live in Los Osos that knew mw as a young girl who have told different people, one lady told Mrs. B that two lived next door to us when we lived on Second Street and she would she told Mrs. B that uh, that um, that I had the worst life that she had ever heard about that she had seen so many people coming in and out of our house and she had heard so much about our house that she wondered how I was even still around.

A: And who would this lady be?

D: Her name is, um, XXXX and she just remarried not very long ago and I, when she lived on this street her last name was XXXX.

A: XXXX ?

D: Uh-huh.

A: And how old is XXXX now?

D: She's probably in her eighties.

A: Okay and you think she just remarried?

D: Well, um, Mrs B knows her and she would probably know more about that. She could tell you 'cause she actually had talked to her.

A: Okay.

D: And then uh, there's another lady and her name is XXXX and she lived across the street from us in the apartment building.

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A: Do you know XXXX last name?

D: Um, at the time her name was XXXX.

A: Okay.

D: And um, I don't know what her last name is now but I know where she works?
A: Okay, where does she work?

D: At XXXX in Los Osos.

A: And how old is XXXX ?

D: Um, she's probably in her fifties.

A: Okay, Okay. Anything Chuck.

B: Uh, I don't think so, let me check something her real quick.

A: Nancy, while he's checking is there anything we haven't asked you or you haven't touched upon today?

D: No, if there is I can't even think about it right now.

A: Okay.

B: You know what might be helpful is, I know you wrote that letter, but is it possible for you to set down with your therapist and to write your details out as much as possible with um, with names and phone numbers as much as you can, can remember? Um…

A: How can I do it when y therapist is in California.

B: Well, or by yourself. You know, I know we've covered a lot of territory here and there might be stuff that we missed in fact that may be the thing to do is that there is things come to mind that you remember, jot them down and you can send them to us through Lee if you like or send them to Tom at our address, okay?

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D: Yeah, so what's going to happen with me?

A: What do you mean what's going to happen?

D: I want to know how you people are going to protect me from somebody who probably already knows that I'm here.

A: Okay.

D: And I'm sure he doesn't have guts enough to come slit my throat himself but I would not put it past him to do something to me.

A: Are talking specifically Fleet White Senior?

D: Well, I wouldn't out it past either one of those people.

A: Fleet White Junior?

D: Yeah, but I don't think they would actually come and do something to me themselves. I think they are way to chicken to do such a thing.

A: Okay.

D: But I think they would certainly want me to shut my mouth and I think that if they wanted me to do that they would, I have no doubt in my mind that they would knock me off right at this moment if they could.

A: Okay. And, Lee, this is what I would have to say about the whole thing. Um, there was a detective out there in California that I spoke to that knows you're out here. I don't know what all XXXX has told anybody um, but the bottom line is if she's told anybody anything is that you are in Boulder with Lee Hill. Does XXXX know about Lee Hill at all?

D: The only way that XXXX could now about Lee Hill is if she got onto my computer.

A: Okay. Is that something she could do?

D: Yeah.

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A: Okay.

D: My computer is still there. She…

A: Your computer is at XXXX house?

D: No, it's at my house.

A: Okay.

D: And my…XXXX is very friendly with my grandmother and I'm sure that XXXX has been over there several times if my grandma is still there.

A: Okay. And what's on your computer tying you to Lee Hill, other than the contact through the Fox.

C: Uh, the history of the computer has maintained a history of websites that you visit.

A: Okay. Is that something she would be smart enough to do?

C: Apparently that has occurred before.

A: Okay.

D: I've had a, I've had a computer before and my um, my computer was actually taken from me once before so I mean, uh, not by any law enforcement people.

A: Right. So let me put this back in perspective. So Lee, she, they may know that she is in Boulder, they may know that she has had contact with you but they have no idea where Nancy would be staying specifically. I mean we haven't gone into that, you know, where you are staying here in Boulder or anything. The only address we have for you is out in California. Um…

D: I'm telling you that these people are not stupid. And, they have a vested interest in…

C: Uh, uh, let me ask you…

A: Uh-huh.

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C: If you are prepared, if you have any resources or if I should be talking to Alex about protective resources or…also this interview hasn't covered all the material that has relevance to ongoing criminal activity.

A: Okay.

C: Uh, in other interviews with Nancy she has detailed and given me names, addresses and phone numbers of people who are in the business of transferring digital images of children having sex on…to cds and so on.

A: Okay.

C: In Arkansas we have the names of the name of that person and there is a lot of other information on ongoing federal criminal activity. I realize that's not your jurisdiction.

A: Right.

C: But um, and, and, recorded telephone messages left on her therapist's answering machine I recorded on video tape and you hear uh, her grandmother making statements like Nancy is forgotten more than you'll ever know. Leave her, uh, you know…

B: Uh, hold on, let me stop just a second, we're getting off of actually the subject matter so let me just go off record and then I'll get Alex in here and maybe he can be part of this conversation.

X. She's, she's got a critical concern that's, hasn't documented. Also some of the issues that she's had dealing with local law enforcement having been very frustrating and there is a perception that they are either I don't, please don't take offense, I don't mean to disparage any law enforcement officer…

A: Yeah

C: …but she has a perception that they are at the very least, very influenced by these rich powerful people out there.

A: Uh-huh

C: And so there is a big precluding to discredit her that has been utilized This affect has

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been akin to, with the Chicago Police handing that Filipino boy back to Jeffrey Dahmer, and she is very much afraid of that happening here.

A: Okay. And again, Alex may be able to help address some of the issues you have, um, but yeah I think one of the most important things are one, somebody may know you are in Boulder. They may know that you have had contact with Lee Hill and that's uh, okay, and say somebody does know you are in Boulder, somebody does know you have contact with Lee Hill

(tape ends abruptly)